AR:The Beginning of the End.....the Rebirth of the Myth

sakiss

Nuovo Alfista
13 Novembre 2004
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Greece
Il cuore ha sempre ragione
gtv362mq.jpg


Alfa Romeo Vs Porsche/VW/Bmw...etc german ''lack of passion'' brands.
Beetle was the father of 356 the first porsches car in the end of 40es(in that period AR was constructing luxury and expensive cars like 6c2500).1300 version of the first 356 used the same block with VW such us 1050 & 1600 versions of 356.912 and after 911 were more hard to drive even than pure supercars of ferrari in the same period.And before the period of electronics/4wd came owners of porsche locked them in the garage when it was raining(911 RennSport of 73).Don't speak about the turbo-lag of the first 991-turbo.In 1950 AR produced its first mass production car the 1900 in sprint & super sprint versions and it costed also a lot than porsche 356.In the mid of 50es AR introduces Giulietta 1300 Sprint & Spider the first AR’s with low price/engine cubism in order to compete with 356.In the same period Porsche introduces 1600cc of 356 but it couldn’t even match the performances of a giulietta sprint 1300cc.1900 sprint/spider are replaced from more expensive 2000/2600 sprint/spider and Giulietta acquired a 1600cc engine and changes its name to Giulia GT Sprint.Porsche introduces 356 2000 & in the end of 60es introduces 912/911 with 2.0lt engine and then follows 2,4lt to replace 356…in the same period the production of 2000/2600sprint/spider ends and AR introduces 33 stradale & Montreal and because of the energy crisis the sales of supercars drops…33 dominates in the races.Porsche introduces 911 turbo and Ferrari the first V12 entrylevel the 308 and it’s the first time that a Porsche who was constructing small cars can be compared with a Ferrari despite it is entry level.If we want to see a real supercar from Porsche we must wait until the end of 80es with 959.So it is ridiculous for some alfisti to reduce the history of AR by compairing it with Porsche which is a company originated from the rib of a VW Beetle.

Ceramic brakes is not Porsche's innovation as some mags report but made in italy by Brembo.250 GTO '62 was until 1987 the most expensive car in public sale.Then the first place passed to Bugatti Type 41 Royale of 1931 with 5.500.000£,and from 2001 the first place belongs to one of the 2 remaining 8c2900b LM Touring Superleggera of 1938 for 11.000.000$....even one of the 3 remaining F50 GT1 costs under 9.000.000$.Porsche will never gain the HERITAGE of Alfa/Bugatti/Ferrari/Bentley and lets say Mercedes.Ferrari is the only company that was born after the war and gives you the emotion of the heroic automotive period(it excisted before war as AR's racing team and all nowadays Ferrari's G.turismo continues AR's concept before 1951.Heritage is sth very important for cars that overcome the price of 1.000.000$.For example Mc Laren F1 is an amazing car but in six years of production it sold only 80mcf1 out of 100 that were constructed...you see for collectors Mclaren's name means nothing!For 3 decates AR(historical rival of Bugatti & Bentley) was constructing cars in the price of nowadays Ferrari/ bugatti.Ferrari the son of AR become famous cause scuderia Ferrari was the official grandprix racing team of AR between 1929 & 1934,12/13 years before Ferrari produced it’s first road car.

911 was born as an adaption of an entry level car VW beetle....uses a layout used in a low-price car in the 30-50's....cause was the less costly lay out to produce is rear engined/rwd(37/63 and can reach 39/61 in turbo versions)....in those times was very costly have fwd/frontengine(and even now rwd rear engine remain the less costly even if rarely used)...even today use a front suspension scheme 'mcpherson strut' that is odd for a proper sportcar(should have double wishbone...and porsche supercars like carrera GT use double wishbone) and the rear multilink is worse than those of Golf but with the help of electronics there is no problem..even the 4wd used in 911 carrera4 with viscous coupling similar to that used by panda..to make an example is not an example of sofistication,dont mention the slow steering wheel with 3 turns....911 is a car with exceptional set up...they work decades on it's set up but technically is just over mediocrity and many solutions that porsche explains as tradition in reality have to do with low production cost and high profit....

Porsche appart that has in all models a less stiff body than brera(Brera has a 20% stiffer body than 159...in the same level with carbon fiber ferrari f50 in torsional rigidity level)........uses in carrera 4 a viscous coupling 4wd far less sofisticated than the three differential with torsen-c central 4wd used by Brera...except of all that porsche cayman/boxster and 911 use a simple mcpherson strut in the front axle...so even the suspension scheme of Brera double wishbone front-multilink rear is more sofisticated than that of porsche with mcpherson strut front and multilink rear..in that we have to add the far quicker steering wheel of Brera derives from that of the actual 147/156 GTA that was the faster in the world in pair with some TVR models with 1,75turns....911 and porsche in general have very slow steering wheels with 2,9-3,2 turns..
The product was so good that guide the maserati management to make the choice to develop a 911 carrera level priced(80.000 euro) maserati entry level model based on Brera model(for now the project is frozen due to economic reasons)...Boxster and Cayman is not state of the art neither as handling...Aston Martin has a far longer wheelbase and a more GT set up than 911 carrera S...so in track surely a car like 911 would be advantaged specially if the car is not state of the art on it;s set up...V8 Vantage would make better if follow the quattroporte and 612 example with more weight in rear axle...that could help in a car with long wheelbase...and would give better performance...Cayman is stiff but is based on 986/987 a project launched in market in 1996...first of all so the body is stiff but is half as stiff as Brera for example...
after Cayman handles better than a carrera but not as good as a carrera 4...you would b eimpressed by the performance of a good 4wd...and brera has a state of the art 4wd...much more sofisticated than the viscous coupling one of 996/997..
After as the 911 has a mcpherson strut as front suspension not the best choice for a sportcar...

Porsches philosophy is high profit with low cost cause........

1995/2006 Porsche
-Boxster 986/Boxster 987/Cayman
-996/997
-Cayenne
Carrera GT

3 models build in the base of a restyled VW 2 type 807/Ulysse...and Boxster/911 have beyond 40% of the parts in common....

1995/2006 Ferrari
-360/F430
-575/550/superamerica
-612
-F50
-Enzo Ferrari/F
-F599

2 completely new models and 3 new to replace the series.

1995/2006 Aston Martin
-DB9
-Vanquish
-V8 Vantage

Despite have small numbers it introduces new models and not facelifts.

Jaguar 1995/2005
-X Type
-XK 1996
-XK
-XJ 1995
-XJ
-S Type

6 models of completely new series… against the 3 of Porsche which were specially built in the same period.

Porsche facelifts.
Boxster 986...1996.Restyled in 2004 with 987.
911 986........1997..............//.......... 2004
Cayman & boxster are the restyled/coupe versions of 997(1996).
Cayenne is a masked VW Touareg with only the V8(turbo) made from Porsche.
986/87 (boxter) has great parts of the platform & 60% parts in common with 996/997(911) of 1997…. they are not new models but heavy restyling of the previous models that go back in 90es.In order to see a totally new model we have to wait until 2009 with panamera(4 door coupe)

AR race wins
(Without GTV6, 75, Alfetta in ETCC; 75, 155 in BTCC, 1750 in 24h Nurburgring)…..and you avoid to speak about AR wins in prewar period…..you should know that those wins in historic events made AR the most important company for collectors not Touring races from 1965!...but ok lets speak about most recent touring races cause when AR was winning Maserati/Bugatti in prewar races Bmw was constructing engines for aeroplanes.

1965
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 49
BMW 44
Division 3, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 2

1966
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 51
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 31,5

1967
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo
BMW not include

1969
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 78
BMW 36
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 76,5

1970
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 63
Alfa Romeo 46
Division 3, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 60
BMW 30

1971
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 54
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 54
BMW 28
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 35

1972
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 91
BMW 85
1973
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 94
BMW 62
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 120

1974
Division 1, Manufacturers
BMW 61
Alfa Romeo 34
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 90

1975
Division 1, Manufacturers
BMW 47
Alfa Romeo don’t race
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 120
Alfa Romeo don’t race

1976
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 115
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 135
BMW 85
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 30
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 140

1977
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 160
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 32
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 150
Alfa Romeo 137
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 133
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 160

1978
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 170
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 152
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 140

1979
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 180
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 172
Alfa Romeo don’t race

1980
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 140
Alfa Romeo 68

1981
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 140
Alfa Romeo don’t race

1982
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 160
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 155

1983
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 165

1984
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 152

1985
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 200 (257)
BMW 139
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 114 (140)

1986
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 73
BMW 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 160

AR wins with smaller engines…In the battle ALFA GTV 2.5 vs BMW 635 AR is winner and in the battle ALFA GTA (GTAm) vs BMW 2002 AR is again winner.Bmw/Porsche when compared to AR’s history is a total ZERO with ZERO interest fOR collectors….except James Deen Porsche 550 (i am just joking)…but speaking about history Audi’s is even below ZERO and more embarrassing for automotive history!


Brera/spider,z4,slk,boxster/cayman,TT belong in the same category independently to their architecture.Porsche has a traditional rivalry with AR that started with 356/ giulietta sprint & spider in 50es.In that period Porsche did not have equally powerful cars to Alfa Romeo 1900 & 2000/2600 Sprint & Spider.A rivalry that exists today between porsche club & alfa club of usa....Boxster uses McPherson in front,slow steering wheel and 10years old frame(1996).Brera is 4,4 times more rigid than Boxster and 2t more than Cayman.TT is an unacceptable car...it uses the same mechanical parts with Golf IV/Leon/Toledo/Octavia/A3-->McPherson/knee action/fake 4wd with haldex and multilink that was recalled (twice and it was fitted with esp) in 1999 cause it broke down and caused death accidents....also cause of bad aerodynamic it tumbled in high speeds...what a perfect car only when compared to a city car like ATOS!According to testers ferrari/maserati-Dario Benuzzi 159/Βrera Q4 have simiral handling to quattroporte/gransport.Some people say that Brera is heavy....i want to inform them that Brera 3.2 fitted with V8 of maserati gransport weights less than a maserati coupe/gransport (despite having Q4).Speaking of German cars 7 & S class are the most unreliable cars in the world with the most electronic problems which their owners know well....i remember characteristically when a series 7 was immobilised and the mechanics(?) found the problem after 2 weeks of searching.
5 series after a car crash costs a fortune...cause the stupid choice of Bmw to use chassis from 2 materials & combined with the complicated aircraft way of assembling it was demolished in euroncap crashtest...3 stars only in the first tests is very poor rating...that cause a headache to insurance companies in Usa and most of them do not assure 5/6 series...it is better to throw 5/6 in rubbish after a car crash rather than pay for repairing.
Some people don't like to hear it but Porsche's technical solutions are antiquated and it is the company with the worse value for money...after bugatti/bentley/lamborghini,even scoda is the company in grouppo Vag with great history....more important than Audi's/vw/seat....i want say anything...i will remind you that the fist mass production car with translaxe was a scoda.


Brera has a 15% stiffer body than 159...207.000 daNM/rad(2.070.000 NM/rad) or 36.100 ΝΜ/deg......in the same level with carbon fiber ferrari f50/maserati quattroporte......sth amazing for this segment.Cayman has half the t.r. sth that is natural cause it is not a total new product but it is based in the 10years old chassis of Boxster with all the compromises.Except of all that porsche cayman use a simple mcpherson strut in the front axle sth that affects the turn in accurancy and combined with the traditional slow steering wheel of Porsche doen't help sport driving behaviour.I remind that even the conventional versions of brera & spider 3.2JTS Q4 decelarate 100-0 in 35,5m which is 1.2m better than the sport version of Boxster S(36,7m)....& 1,9m from Spider's 3.2JTS Q4 rival,Boxster(37,4m).Also Brera uses double wishbone front-multilink rear..in that we have to add the quickest steering wheel in its seg. and the most sophisticated 4wd Q4 II (according to professors of automotive press like Serge Bellu or Μichele Fenu) first with Torsen-C II in the market.The central differential can create 20% blocking effect in the front differential sth that eliminates the traditional oversteer of 4wd cars in thick turns.Some ignorant journalists try to compare Brera 3.2 Q4 with Evo/Wrx sti in order to drug in the mad but their technical specifications of these cars do not impress me.It is very easy with a stiff suspension and expensive 4wd even in a car with mediocore suspension/chassis to achieve competitive performances....the hard thing is to combine ultimate handling/driving behaviour with roll quality/comfort....like Alfa Romeo does...sth that requires great frame in all sectors and not only in setup.Don't even mention the mediocore chassis of TT same with Octavia/Leon/Toledo/Golf IV/A3 and the fake 4wd with haldex


brera_milano.jpg

Brera is the name of a high class neighborhood in the centre of Milan,but is more famous as the name of world fame academy of good arts and because
Alfa romeo wanted to take advantage of the logical consequence it's name creates,decided to make presentations of Alfa Romeo Brera with invitations in an art gallery.Moreover alfa romeo's are cars that suits best the definition
''sculptural work of art in 4 wheels''.....first from these events took place before one week and others will follow in all the important markets.

Alfa will return in USA with the facelift2008 Brera & Spider as MY2009 US models, but that means that the company launch is for 2008 otherways we would talk about my2010 models.The pricing will be at the same level with the BMWs, take a look at Z4 Coupe 3.0si and Z4 Roadster 3.0si prices, just to take a glimpse of Brera/Spider 3.2JTS pricing.3.2 v6 evolution will boost 290hp.

New engines
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First to put an end in speculations, Holden does not design engines, the new 3.6V6 used by the Holden Commodore and called "alloytec" by Holden, is the all new high tech 3.6V6 called HFV6 "High Feature V6" in the US by Cadillac, and Cadillac not Holden was the first GM brand to use it(in CTS,SRX & STS), this engine is part of a new family of modular engines called Global V6, product of the former JV between Fiat & GM called Fiat-GM Powertrain, ofcourse except the european Turin based Fiat-GM Powertrain, North American GM Powertrain participate to the r&d of this new modular engine family, product of this JV is the Cadillac 255bhp(258ps) 3.6 HFV6(called alloytec by holden in Australia) Alfa's 260ps 3.2V6 JTS and Saab's 2.8V6 Turbo 230ps/255ps.The common block of these engines was designed in order to satisfy all the different applications, and it's 60° V architecture is a classic for Alfa, the busso is a 60° all alloy V6 too, the Alfa V6 JTS ofcourse uses different heads with stoichiometric direct injection(is a bit different and sportier than classic GDI(which will see in some other GM's V6 global application),Alfa is the first house that use that type of GDI and till now only Lexus use it too in it's new V6 family) and Twinphaser dual VVT, and other modification and accessories that make it differ substantially from the GM cousins..the heads of the new V6 JTS are designed in order to accomodate in the future the awarded Multiair electronic valve control for the MY2010, before the Multiair revolution which is scheduled for late 2009, we will have a new step for the JTS engines in late 2007 for the MY2008, the 3.2V6 JTS will get an upgrade to 290ps (286bhp), and this upgraded version of the 3.2JTS will be the version you will see in the other shore of the atlantic.
The choice to manufacture Alfa's V6 JTS in the new Port Melbourne plant and not in the St.Catharines Ontario plant that manufacture as well the V6 global, was a choice of quality, the new plant in australia could assure a better respect of alfa romeo's specifications, the engine is shipped partly assembled to Italy, the final assembly of the V6 JTS engines is made in Alfa Romeo's Pomigliano d'Arco plant.

First of all Holden doesn't even have a powertrain department(use GM engines)...the new V6 Global family is a JV project between Fiat and GM a Fiat-GM Powertrain project...and in the fiat gm powertrain r&d department the 80% of the personell was Italian...from this fiat gm V6 global family is derived the alfa V6 JTS but in difference with all other engines of this family has only the engine block in common...all other parts appart the fiat-gm block are 100% exclusive to alfa romeo and even the dual VVT system the TwinPhaser is an invention of alfa romeo s.p.a. in 1982...as JTS now copied by lexus....think that even the GM versions like Saab V6 Turbo or the 3.6V6 High Feature used by Cadillac and recently by other brands like Holden have fiat dna on them.The choice to produce in the all new factory in australia was made bt fiat and gm europe cause was all new...if the matter was the cost they would prefer the canadian plant where the V6 global family is also produced for cadillac models...

V6 Global is a family of V6's developed in JV between Fiat and GM in the period through 2001 and 2004, the alfa v6 jts engine are the most distant relatives of the basic fiat-gm V6 global as use only the same block with the other...but even in the 2.8V6 Turbo developed by Saab named ecotec V6 turbo on vectra restyling or even the high feature 3.6 used by Cadillac and at last by Holden have many fiat cromosomes...it is an engine family developed between both parts of atlantic...the choice of australia for alfa and gm europe engines were cause the factory is totally new...is a choice made for quality if itv was for logistics they would prefer north america..holden has nothing to do with the development...this family comes in three displacements 2.8 3.2 and 3.6 we will surely see a 2.8 alfa but is not yet decided if they will offer the 3.6 too...
All new L4 JTS and V6 JTS families heads are ready to adopt multiair electronic valve control system...

Appart what i say there,is impossible achieve a specific power of 12,5% higher, 300rpm lower(!), without very heavy modifications, that include specific heads and use of state of the art technology like the exclusive stoichiometric gasoline direct injection JTS(Jet Thrust Stoichiometric) and Twinphaser(DualVVT).

aspirated V6 global engines
Alfa 3.2V6 JTS 3195cm3 260cv/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(290nm/1800rpm*)
Cadillac(GM) 3.6V6 "HighFeature" 3564cm3 258cv/6500rpm 339nm/2800rpm
specific power and torque...
Alfa V6 JTS 81,4cv/6200rpm 100,8nm/4500rpm(90,8nm/1800rpm*)
GM 3.6 HFV6 72,4cv/6500rpm 95,1nm/2800rpm

*more than 90% of the max torque from 1800 to 6250rpm.

The new 3.2JTS a sounds excellent the same as the busso 3.2V6(that is euro IV as well), and i own/ed both, and earlier bussos too, to find a busso that sounds better than the current V6 JTS you have to go to the previous euro III and euro II 3.0V6s, the sound difference with older engines is a matter of the emission normatives.
At last i remind you that the busso V6 in 1979 when started it's carrier, was not that monster of power compared to the other 6cylinders in the market, very later we saw this engine real potential with the various Dohc and 4v/cyl upgrades, the new V6 JTS is already in a very good level, and with the predicted power upgrades for my2008 and my2010 with the multiair electronic valve control will surely be where alfa fans expect it, single at the top of it's segment.

The block is important for the engine architecture & weight, but the rest makes the engines soul not the block.Regarding the new Alfa V6 JTS that shares it's block with the various new GM V6 engines i have to say that the choice of having a 60 degrees V and be all alloy make it a proper block for Alfa

For those who complain about new engines and weight
So many years i did not hear any complaint that AR used Fiat's blocks in their ts engines made from cast iron...at least the new blocks have better thermodynamic/torque made totally from aluminium and weight less.Anyway Fiat-Gm powertrain belongs to the past.AR will introduce step 2 of its Diesel/petrol engines and new turbo engines (1.8/2.2JTB.Also until the end of the decade AR will introduce (except new diesel's) new generation of 4 and 6 cylinder engines.For example the new V6 will share common components with the new alfa-ferrari-maserati v8 that it will replace the current v8 with dry sump.The new v6 will easily have a power ratio at 90-100hp/lt under 7000rpm.

New engines were initilally destinated for 2007.....but Brera/159 had to be in the market in 2006 and as result engines were not 100% ready......thats why evolution versions will be introduced in 2007-2008 plus new turbo engines.
Bmw's L6 uses valvetronic while V6 JTS has direct injection JTS,higher spesific power/rpm-torque and homologated with 95Ron.V6 JTS despite the V architecture (which means more weight) and 0,2lt+ compared to the straight L6 weights only 1kg more!In terms of sound nothing can be compared to AR's v6....everything else sounds like an else sounds like a toaster.New V6 has more metallic/brutal sound than 3.2V6 euro4 of Gt coupe with less bass (don't blame AR...blame euro4) which is sth that i have to admit.It has better response in low rpm cause of better torque sth that Busso's V6 was missing and also it has the same brio in high rpm's.According to auto mag it accelarates (0-100) Brera in 6.5sec and in top gear in 6.6sec.This is sth amazing if we consider that 156GTA that weights 220kg less reaches 100km/h (according to auto) in 6.3sec.Also don't forget that Brera's gearbox has long gear ratios....it's second gear dont overcome 120km/h....if it had same gear ratios with 147/156 GTA/GT 3.2 it would easily reach 100km/h in sth slighlty more than 6sec......and weights 220kg more than 156 and 270kg than 147.In terms of performarnce V6JTS is better than busso's v6.For those who compalin about Gm origin,only the block is Fiat-Gm Powertrain.Holden doesn't develope engines,it just constructe's/cast the blocks according to Fiat-Gm's specifications.In the past i did not hear any beefs in British magazines about 6,75 V8 of Bentley/RR which is just a GM big block 6,75lt retrofit of 50es....and the funny thing is that some bentley owners are complaining about the use of the W12 VW/Audi retrofit....neither of those engines were 100% Bentley.

Alfa 1.9JTS(1859cm3) 160hp
Audi 2.0 130hp
BMW 18i 2.0 129hp

Alfa 2.2JTS 185hp
BMW 20i 2.0 150hp
Audi/VW 2.0FSi
Audi 1.8Turbo 163hp
MB 1.8 Kompressor 163hp
VW 1.4TSI 170hp

AR vs Bmw

1858cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 160hp/6500rpm 190nm/4500rpm(168nm/2000rpm)
'18i' 1998cm3 L4 16v Valvetronic 129hp/5750rpm 180nm/3250rpm
.................................................. .............................................
2198cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 185hp/6500rpm 230nm/4500rpm(203nm/2000rpm)
'20i' 1998cm3 L4 16v valvetronic 150hp/6200rpm 200nm/3600rpm
.................................................. .............................................
3195cm3 V6 24v JTS TwinPhaser 260hp/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(285nm/2000rpm)
'30i' 2995cm3 L6 24v valvetronic 258hp/6600rpm 300nm/2500rpm

It is true that new generation of AR's need better performances (i dont care for cold performances in boring straights but the excellent new platform can easily handle more horsepower)...yes they are heavy but to be HONEST they are not very heavy for what they offer...
A 4wd 350z would weight more than a Brera 3,2JTS...a similar in length 4wd with glazed roof and similar equipment 350Z would weight 100kgr more than a Brera 3.2JTS Q4...
A similar in lenghth 3 series with similar equipment would have a weight similar to 159...there not too heavy for what they offer in proportion to the competitors..
After engine weight is not important for total weight but is very important for the front axe weight that can increase a cars understeering as happens in the new TT TFSI(even if the total weight is low..that doesn't matters is engine weight that matters) for example or the Golf GT with the TSI engine......

As i said before it is true that Brera 3.2 is a heavy car but we must consider Q4(150KG+)/skyview/bigger dimensions and better equiped than Gtv...but 2.2JTS version that does not have Q4 shows that Brera is not a heavy car at all.According to manual GTV 2.0 40kg heavier than Brera 2.2

GTV 2.0ΤS/JTS commercial brochure 1370kgr DIN manual 1490kgr DIN(1565kgr ECE)
Βrera 2.2JTS commercial brochure 1470kgr DIN manual 1450kgr DIN(1525kgr ECE)

ECE=DIN + 75KG (weight of driver+liquids)

-Multiair 2009
-1.8JTB 200hp (H1/2008)
-1.4TB 120hp & 150hp (>200Nm/1500rpm)beginning of 2007
-2.2JTB beginning of 2008
-2.4JTD second step 220hp/425Nm....2.5JTDm 240hp 2008
-1.6JTD 120/130hp soon available
-1.9JTDm 175hp (H2/2006).........2.0JTDm 190hp 2008
-1.9JTDm TwinStage 200hp 2007........................2.0JTDm TwinStage 220hp
-3.0JTDm 250hp(step 1)/270hp(step 2)/290hp(step 3)
2007-08
-1.9JTS evolution 170hp
-2.2JTS evolution 200hp
-3.2JTS evolution 290hp

WAKE UP and read the below list...and that the block is just the soulless part of the engine....despite most of the R&D is made in italy!!....where the block is casted is sth that does not bother me!

1)Bmw provides Mini with Chrysler engines while has contract on future 4.0lt (1.8-2.2lt) with the PSA(not only the souless block but all the engine R&D will be Psa.....also Mini's diesel is derivered from Toyota.
2)Cayenne uses 3.2V6 the VW with no modification...Porsches high profit with low cost.
3)Ford --> Jaguar/Aston Martin while collaborates with the PSA in Diesel.Jaguar S type uses the engine of Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird.Aston Martin Vantage which costs 120000euro uses the V8 of Lincoln and the 155,000 DB9/250.000 Vanquish use a v6+v6=v12....v6=duratec ford....so sad for those historical companies...whould you like if Ferrari enzo had a v12=v6+v6(from fiat)?
4)Audi Seat and Skoda, same engines with the VW.
5)Diesel of Daimlerchrysler from Vm motori s.p.a
6),75 V8 of Bentley/RR which is just a GM big block 6,75lt retrofit of 50es.

Despite Bmw announced that each other 6cylinder engine with the same hp with it’s own 6cylinder weights 10kg more,AR’s new alouminium V6 weights only +1kg (162kg)

V6 Busso VS V6 JTS
-20kg
+20hp/33nm
JTS
TwinPhaser--> offers 85% of torque between 1500 & 6000rpm & 90% between 2500 & 6000rpm

Platform
The 156 successor before the GM Fiat agreement would use the Fiat Stilo floorpan(called Type C/D) in a version with longer wheelbase and alfa specific suspension architecture, what Alfa gain with this history is the premium floorpan, that is the first exclusive Alfa floorpan since 116.When the alliance started they wanted to use the GM Epsilon floorpan with alfa specific suspensions for the 156 successor and GTV/Spider successors.
In late 2000 started a project between Alfa(fiat auto),Saab(Gm europe) & Cadillac(GM) for an E/F segment high tech modular floorpan(for 166,9-5 and CTS/STS successors) based on a Fiat reserach center patent that would allow flexible wheelbase length,transverse or longitudinal mounted engines and gearboxes, fwd or rwd with just changing one or a couple of modules, Cadillac was the first house to left the project some months after to concentrate on the cheaper rwd Sigma floorpan, in early 2002 a Saab deep in crisis decide to abandon the expensive premium floorpan and expand it's synergies with Opel/Vauxhall in order to cut cost.
Alfa made a brave decision to keep and develop the premium floorpan, but wouldn't come to break even point with 166 successor, so they decided to use a version of the high tech premium floorpan for the 156 successor in order to have the needed volume.In march 2002 in Geneva, Brera concept was presented by Italdesign-Giugiaro, and public loved it, a couple of months after Alfa made a proposal to italdesign to design all the new midsize family based on brera concept style, december 2002 Alfa & Italdesign announced their collaboration.

And as a result of 159's excellent platform...
159 was 1st in all the FIVE dynamique tests of German AMS MASTERTEST...
Stability test in the corner 159 1st.....3 11th....a4 6th...C 7th
Wet Lane Change....159 1st....3 3rd........a4 9th.......C....10th
Lane Change........159 1.....3 3......A4 9........C 2....
Slalom.........159 1........3 3........A4 9.......C 7......
Test reindeer ...159 1..........3 2........A4 11........C 3...

What car is the best in handling in D segment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgTsO6fk ... alfa%20rom eo%20159

Also it won the French mastertest
(BMW 320d,Audi A4 2.0TDI,Jaguar X type D,Peugeot 407 και Renault Laguna)
http://www.mitoalfaromeo.com/Public/dat ... 0051016123 034_Mail0002.JPG

Brera
Clarkson says, "New definition of insanity....someone who looks at a Brera and then buys something else...".....I've never driven a car that less needed its ESP system.

Brera represents the real spirit of AR which is simiral to cars like 1900SS & Giulietta Sprint.
Brera is for someone with automotive education(not for you),wider culture but also is lover of high aesthetics and follows the last tendencies of fashion(of course not for you).But it’s also a trendsetter and fashionvictims will buy it like they did with Χ5/Cayenne or Mini…sorry for being cynical but there is a category of people that don’t care about money/logic and just buy a car in order to be in and follow fashion tendencies…..those people passed from boxster to TT and nowadays they are driving ΜΙΝΙ or SUV(X5,X3,M,Cayenne etc.)

You can't loose or ''buy'' history...for example VW bought bugatti/bentley.Porsche is a makes that is absent from the heroic automotive period & it was given birth from the rib of VW,a mass production constructor.From 356 until 911 uses a technical solution with rwd/rear engine which is the most economic and applicated in city cars like Fiat 500,VW Kaefer,Fiat 127,Fiat 600....not sth appropriate for supercars...also the adoption of boxer engines from 356 has its roots in VW beetle.Why Porsche and in general all hypothetic german premium constructors did not get involved with 4cylinder?.....audi get involved with 2-cycle engine 800cc/1000cc....bmw with 400cc....i am not talking about motorcycles!!The movement in front axis has noble origin,much nobler than that of engine behind/rwd or even classic rwd.Nowadays classic rwd is technically acceptable only for light roadsters with attractive price.Afterwards a serious RWD constructor selects the solution of the gearbox in the rear axis if the engine is in front,or the engine in the centre sth that gives better weight distribution.Fwd was given birth from some of the most prestigious constructors of all time like Duesenberg or Bucciali...There are not so many companies to have produced 16/12 cylinder like AR did in its 96 years of history...recently Porsche reached 10cylinder.

Impressions of Quattroruote (January) for Brera 2.2 JTS "Sky Window" in the track of Varano.....thank god they are some Journalists that appreciate the general behaviour of a car and not impressed just from performances.
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What we want to show is not simply the tour of the circuit for the achievement of the absolute time. This time the driver should be concentrated in the behavior of the car in the limit so to understand turn by turn,how electronics and the frame influences the reactions of Brera.A type of technical lecture in the dynamic behavior where they come in the surface various desing secrets that influences the particular senses in the driving that are transported to the driver.A result that has never been achieved from a Fwd car which is in general less pleasant to drive compared to a rwd.The first interesting observation comes already in the first turn.After a big piece of acceleration and one decisive braking,Brera enters the turn with big precision and speed.Here,the big role plays the front suspension of type high quadrilateral which gives a more precise and direct control in the wheels.The perfect characteristics of Brera's stability have allowed the use of a very pleasant and fast wheel.The response is very direct that can actually bring in crisis the rear axle of any car which is not so stable as Brera.Up to now only BMW could achieve a so much small corner of turn of wheel (13 degrees) for each corner of turn of wheels however with variable relation & depending on the speed.Brera maintains its precision with no understeer effects.In this,helps the combined operation of two different technical solutions.First it is the increased reinstatement from the suspension of camber angle and the other is the big traverse stability of wheels with the use of wheels bearing of third generation.The result is that Brera does almost never leave her ''feet'' from the ground and so the tyre can give the biggest possible handling.Also, if you give acceleration,is still achieved the transport of more force in the street and you come out from the turn with higher speed.From the moment where the car takes the desirable orbit you can immersion your right foot in the floor and pass comfortably the S of the circuit.In this they even contribute the excellent weight distribuion of the car,obvious in the abrupt change of orbit that is required in the second, more closed, S of the track.Brera is presented flexible and direct,offering a perfect stability of independent intervention of electronic that we had voluntary deactivated so that we mainly judge the quality of frame.Generally flexibility and stability do not go usually together.However Alfa Romeo accomplished to wed these two significances.We complete the tour of the track making an observation which elects finally the perfect impressions that left to us.The facility of control and the most excellent reactions of Brera in the limit are not influenced by no means by electronics(same comment was made by Top Gear-I've never driven a car that less needed its ESP system).....The intervention of electronics in this car are useful only in order to correct seriously driver mistakes and NOT in order to correct desing errors with regard to the frame!

Some general comments in the end of trial...
-"IN THE STREET: It touches upon the perfection with regard to the pleasure in the control.Fast entry in the turns and very well balanced. It is fast and sure even without the electronics on.
-STEERING WHEEL: Direct, fast and progressive, it helps in the sport control. It reacts also very well in slow locomotions. Not very heavy in maneuver,neather too sensitive(light) in fast,it does not transport vibrations from the street.

159
Alfa 159:This is one of those cars that’s demonstrably and appreciably better than any other mid-range four-door family saloon. And unlike any Alfa of the past, you don’t have to machete your way through a million inconveniences to find the point. This car does not hide its gold watch up its behind. It is an absolute gem. Jeremy Clarkson for Sunday Times

Alfa romeo is not only cars like 75 or Giulietta....but also cars like 1900 or 2000/2600 berlina refined and with Gt character...Alfa is neither lotus neither lamborghini..alfa is not pure sportiness is like her daughterbrand ferrari is sport combined with elegance and sofistication that's what alfa is about from 1910 to 2005...

159 is a real alfa...probably more real alfa than the rwd 75...and that cause alfa have to be for tradition a class benchmark and 75 was surely nice to drive car but in an very old basis(from '72 Alfetta) and poor in all other aspects even the design wasn't at the height's of alfa's tradition...for me 159 is the first real alfa in d segment for years the first complete d segment alfa since Alfetta(alfa 147 is a real alfa a superbe interpretation of alfasud theme)......all alfa's till 2000/2600 berlina had for exaple state of the art quality..and even more recent giulia was sensibly heavier than a BMW 02...just like 159 over 3 e90...many of alfa classics were very heavy cars even compared to the rivals like for example the late 40's version of 6c2500 or even the first mass alfa the 1900...i think that many loose the point what is really alfa...alfa is not only pure sportiness is a way of sofisticated and elegant sportiness and with the recent models alfa return to it's tradition....

Alfa 159 is a sport sedan not a sportcar neither Giulia 4door or 1900 were sportcars what you want an even sportier car...cause 159 is the sportiest sedan in offer in todays market with less weight(even i don;t think that in normal versions weight was a vaint for classic alfa's...usually weigh more than other cars of it's times)...towards uncompromised...alla cars are compromised except supercars and highend luxury lmousines....and surely 159 is the most uncompromised car in it's segment even if it's compromised as all not handmade cars...

No alfa has never been such an evolutionary brand as you present was more a revolutionary brand...see the succession from handmade cars to industrial from 6c2500 to 1900.....the revolution in design that created contrasts in the alfisti from Giulietta to Giulia....the contrast between alfisti between giulia and alfetta both for technic and design...so it's not something new as you want to present...alfa 159 is a new reinterpretation of alfa spirit much more alfa than 75 or 156 that were really products carismatic surely but born in compromise.. alfa 159 has cues from many models of the past and ofcourse has much of the year 2000..as 1900 was an alfa of 1950 or Giulietta of 1955 or Giulia of 1962 or Alfetta of 1972...the 159 is a real alfa of 2005.. and it is the first real alfa since Alfetta...ofcourse as all cars has advantages and disadvantages nothing is perfect...but at the moment is the best car in it's segment an excellent car the new executive compact benchmark and that's something we had to see in alfa since alfetta.

156 was a carismatic car but missed the grandeur od 159...159 has both the grandeur and the carisma...and is miraculous the way can combine the best handling in segment with the best comfort between the executive compact cars...why have only something when you can have everything....

159 is a charismatic car...and after Fiat Auto had spent an amount in R&D for 159 bigger than that of BMW in 3 e90...you have to consider in overall cost even the cost of the industrialization...alfa has line in pomigliano for 180.000 cars max..BMW for 400.000 3 series 4door and Touring only in Germany..if you consider this you find that in overall cost alfa spend more for R&D of 159 than BMW in 3 e90...so that BMW spended more for R&D in 3 series over 159 is a myth...now the alfa 159 line produce at the 67% of their max capacity with the add of sportwagon and rhd versions and the launch in all markets we hope to arrive at 100%...but the alfa prediction is for max production in 2007 that will be the first complete year.Just some other figures alfa 156 sold slightly over 130.000 cars in 2000 that is the 156 record and sold over 100.000 any year between 1998 and 2001...
Many spoke about prices the price gap between 159 and 156 is smaller than that between 155 and 156...the brand image is better than 1997....the distribution is not the best is still 3 times small in sell points than audi or bmw...but is better than we had in 1997...the sportwagon arrives some months from the launch and not after 3 years...the line up is more complete...the product has higher credibility and has all the cards to make better than 156..
As for granduer expect the obvious carisma of both 156 and 159...alfa 159 is a more important car true grandeur...

159 offers the most complete technology pack in it's segment...double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension the higher torsional rigidity in it's segment, the first car in the world with multisplit floorpan, the faster steering wheel in it; segment, the first car with a line up exclusively with dierct injection engines,the first car in the world with passenger mounted knees airbag,the first car in it's segment with double glazed windows, the most sofisticated 4wd with three differential and central torsen-c in it's segment, high cut gearboxes...the best brakes in the segment...high quality interior with high quality material and the only car except luxury makers to offer pieno fiore leather quality trim.....a car that won the former leader the former benchmark in every single handling or energy safety test...a car that has the record of lane change in it;s segment with over 130km/h....cutting edge alfa technology......
Alfa Romeo 159 offer better handling than anything in it's segment but offers also more comfort than a bmw,audi,jag or mb..sounds strange but is a reality...159 with a suspension with major excursion and also a bit softer than a 3 series roll less(1,2 degrees with standard suspension)...and handles better in all situations ...when you can offer more..handling+comfort...why offer less?...

The multisplit technology premium floorpan is the more advanced steel floorpan that exists in the market...50kgr more in a car about the 159 size is nothing to the advantages it offers...and is surely not the result of a compromise is the most high cost floorpan used by a D segment car would cost less use a traditional floorpan...
Regarding the fuel quality..all modern engines are very sensible to fuel quality...just try to dyno a Audi A3 2.0FSI with 95ron and with 98ron fuel...you will not found more than 159hp in alfa and more than 145hp in Audi with 95ron fuel...all the last hi tech engines like the JTS or the FSI direct injection or the valvetronic elctronic valve control have very high compression ratio(about 11:1) and are realy sensible to fuel quality...so you have differences of up to 3% in power and torque and of 3% in consumption...alfa romeo JTS engines and Lexus new V6(like IS250 one that copys JTS alfa stoichiometric direct injection) engines are the only houses with direct injection engines that declare the data and the performance using the 95ron fuel...bmw or audi in order to declare better figures declare them using 98ron and only at the end of their last page they say with small letters that performance and consumption would be worst..that's not fair cause the performance differ sensibly on fuel quality.
For end alfa 159 is the right car(drive it and compare it to 3 series or IS(that is as heavy as 159 sic)) is the best executive compact actually in market maintain tha important aspects of an alfa and adds new like quality passive safety confort thata are very important to approach more customers from brands like bmw,audi or mb.
159 is a midsize car not alfa high end car...the real high end alfa we will see till 2008 and will be a over 4,9m foordoor coupe' with many synergies with maserati updated lwb premium floorpan a direct rival to cars like CLS and Porsche Panamera.

All cars are bigger and heavier in this segment...is not something that effects alfa 159 but all mass produced cars...
Is FWD but handles better than the best RWD car in the segment and offers standard to the high end version the most sofisticated 4wd in the segment...so i really don't understand you...
Most people consider the 159 a masterpiece of design ofcourse there will be person who don;t like it's design...as there are persons that don't like picasso but that doesn't mean that picasso is not the most important of the 20th century...same consideration for 159...that there are few people that don;t like 159 doesn't mean that 159 is not a masterpiece...
Lighter and more compact D segment in todays market with a descent design and mass production is impossible...
Ofcourse you can offer a car with less equipment as BMW or Audi make in Germany and without double glazed windows and have 60-100kgr less from 159 but that's not the point cause most people would prefer a better equiped car than the naked german trim levels of 3 series or A4...and after all double glazed windows is one of the features that put this car appart from the competition...is a sofistication and a premiere for the segment...and alfa i remind you at least in foor door sedans is not what you want to say...what you want your view of alfa is not alfa but more something like lotus that doesn't make 4door cars...in the 80's or cars were more extreme sporty and vulgar...but that's not the alfa's heritage neither the real alfa....
As i said alfa 159 is by far a more real alfa than any other berlina we had seen in the two last decades....

159 handles far better from 3 series...forget their points at the end of mastertest and give a look in what they measure...alfa 159 with a worst power to weight ratio wins all and five the handling and energy safety tests....3 series was the last of 11 cars in skidpad...so i really doesn't understand, you ofcourse the german press wil search to defend their industry...as for the roll...alfa 159 with standard suspension rolls exactly 1,2 degrees less than 3 series and that is a fact and not an impression...is measured!
The handling benchmark is the 159 has better handling better and faster steer with same turning circle.....the miraculous is that combines confort to handling...is really impressive how a car with worst power to weight ratio handles better..but has to do with the suspension scheme and the chassis...

The 159 and Brera was tested by the same person that make the development of the 612 or the quattroporte or the F139 or the Enzo or the Mc12...not from ordinary people...and all are impressed from the way brera handles..brera q4 handles better than a 911 carrera 4...i know that for some is a heavy thing to say...but 911 is not that technical benchmark has only optimized set up the rest is open to argument...after strangely as size 911 is the most similar car to Brera...441cm the Brera 443cm the 911...183cm the Brera 181cm the 911...and both with really short wheelbase...252,5cm the Brera and 235cm the 911....

Dimensions...
156 was a compromised product as dimensions...cause alfa wanted a 265cm wheelbase dualframe floorpan but at last they had to use an evolution of tipo 2 that couldn't be extended more than 260cm....so they had to make the compromise to make a car a little smaller from what they were wanting...they wanted a 4,5/4,52m car with 2,65m wheelbase and make a 4,43-4,44m with 2,595m wheelbase....so this was a result of a compromise....same compromise for 166 when alfa wanted a 2,8m wheelbase and Cantarella in order to spend less money doesn't let them use an evolution of the Kappa floorpan but constrict them to use the same floorpan with Kappa...so those 156 or 166 were technically compromised cars...surely if were developed as wanted the alfa management would have even more success...


http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthr ... 08&page=24

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President of Mercedes Benz told in Frankfurt 2003.If AR was able to produce 8c competizione with no limitation in production it will break down Porsche in a few months!!
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Speaking with objectivity Cayenne is a Touareg with restyled front/rear end and different interior…everything else is the same as all the mechanical parts except 2 engines….car body of Cayenne is build in Slovak in the same factory with Touareg and then it is send in Germany for the final assembly…... Cayenne is a travestite Touareg.Porsche whether you like it or not is a company that started from low and nowadays maintains in 911 the architecture of city car and pretends of selling supercars.High profit with low cost…..even it’s last model cayman uses a 10years old frame….Negatives in AR’s history are less than those of hypothetic premium brands like audi,bmw,porsche.


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A real Alfista is a person that can only drive something that brings the fabulous giant green watersnake on it,that does not interest about the absolute horsepower & the nominal records acceleration 0-100 but the performance in a route with many turns,knows that he drives a car of company with the bigger history to the automotive area and cares about the absolute aesthetics....Enzo ferrari said that a car in order to gain wins should be beautiful, a beautiful car inspires you differently in the driving as a beautiful woman in sex....beyond this Alfa's never had extreme setup but always combined comfort and sportiness in order to give you the ultimate feeling in driving but also offer comfort in daily use or in a journey...Alfa romeo is a modern fable... no other company confuse contradictory significances with the way that alfa romeo does..the paganism legendary giant watersnake of the lombard(symbol of the ancient lombard) and wider German mythology in combination with the christian cross of first crusade that began from Milan,alfa romeo is sporting but also elegant,she is set up for spor control in a street with turns but also she is comfortable in a travel,it is the company that constitutes the invention of big sportsedan like 1900 (1950)and the intermediate Giulietta (1955) that constructed the first spor compact alfasud (1972),the company that invented the first supercar,cars as current 575M and 612 constitutes direct descendants of 8c2900( decade 30),she is the 1st company that gained the first organised championship grand prix, is the company that gained the first championship Formula 1, is the company that possesses the bigger record of possessed victories in a big organisation with 7 possessed victories in the Mille Miglia,follows the Ferrari with 6 possessed in Formula 1....She is always the company it has 3/4 of her own cars in the 10 more expensively in the auctions of classic cars, she is the company that from alone is a subject for concours of elegance,Alfa Romeo is a living fable

VW and unhistoric Bmw are Zero when compared to to Pre-war living fable AR…. a company that even when Ferrari is compared to it looks small.A real Alfista is the one that cannot drive anything else expect sth that brings the giant watersnake and the cross in the steering wheel.At least AR in its worst situation it produced a cherry with boxer engine…I mean ARNA….but never produced two cycled engine with 400cc borrowed from a small italic company like Bmw (even famous SmgI of Bmw is constructed from Magneti Marelli,that CRF invented common rail(not bosh),Selespeed first aplicated from Ferrari and then from AR,that italians nowadays construct the best diesels in the world-2005 1.3jtdm was voted best engine in 1.4cc category and so did 1.9jtd in 2004,Multiair (awarded in 2002 ) will make v-tec and Vanos look like antique,Italian cars have the best active safety-remember TT-smart-mercedes a class and owners of Bmw that afraid to drive their cars in Alps,Germans don’t even have technology to build car bodies from carbon fiber-porsche constructs it in italy-ancona for carrera gt and Mercedes in GB from Mclaren,the first floorpan that can be changed from rwd to fwd-multisplit,159/Brera are the first cars to be fitted with Torsen-C 'TwinDiff',designed with the last technical solutions-as a result wheels can be placed as much as outside giving the feel of firmness/better driving behaviour and having the biggest space between the wheels and at last offers all engines with direct injection and TwinPhaser…BUT magazines don’t speak about all this cause FIAT don’t pay them for promotion like Germans do in most countries…specialy in Germany/italy) …or two cycled engine with 800/1000cc like auto union audi….neither audi50 same car with polo…at least AR never produced sth in b seg,never produced small/cheap/city cars,2/3 cylinder car and ofcourse never based like Porsche in city cars…..

Fiat is a company that has played an important role in automotive's history.It was the most important company in grand prix's until 20es that Vittorio Jano left and thanks to Enzo's pressure he joined the rival Alfa Romeo.The fist european company that brought in Europe ''production line'' the first european company with modern factory the Lingotto that Le Corbusier considers it as a miracle of industrial architecture with legendary cars like mefistofele that broke speed record,open limos like double phaeton & phaeton with v12 engines in 20es!...the first european company that created accessibly cars and dominated in sales until 30es...dont forget legend cars like 8V,Dino,130 Coupe etc.Nowaday's Ferrari's are in reality Fiat's with 600/700 & 800hp cause all the know-how is from Fiat the last 35years.Lancia used to construct beautiful cars but only when passed to Fiat started winning races in 70/80es-rally/endurance races of prototypes...so do not underestimate a company that has played an important role not only in the beginning but also in the development of automotive history...thanks to fiat 128,VW copied it and presented Golf...Giugiaro & Piech have admited that.Nowadays a new supercar will be presented with jet engine....do you know which company presented those solution 50years before?

But lets also speak for today…. Ferrari from 1969 is Fiat and also scuderia ferrari was born as AR’s racing team
Ferrari gave Ferrari technology award in its most important technical partner to Fiat(CRF)
http://www.crf.it/A/A3.html
Reparto motori Ferrari works in cooperation with Fiat Powertrain Technologies.
All the electronic subsystems of Ferrari F1-road cars engine/gearbox are made from Magneti Marelli which is a subsidiary company of Fiat and supplies with subsystems Bmw & Renault.I remind that also sequential f1 gearbox are also made from MM and the clever e-diff is CRF patent.Nowadays races be far from mass production cars cause the limitations in electronics/material from FIA so Ferrari has the need to be supported from a great research center like CRF in new material/alloy sector.Also don’t forget that a company with small production has to be supported from one bigger in order to reduce production cost and also to share secondary accessories which have high cost if they will be ordered in small numbers……there is a technical cooperation in every sector between Alfa/maserati & ferrari.Nowadays Fiat has bigger capitalization than General Motors Corp. or Ford Motor Co and Fiat supported Ferrari in its crisis…it saved it from be sold to Ford in 1969 and in 70es with energy crisis that affect supercars market and in the beginning of 90es with low Ferrari sales…fiat brought her back in profit in 1999 and supported in F1 (high budget) that Ferrari couldn’t respond.

A real Alfista is someone who chooses with heart/emotion and less logic…and cannot drive anything else only if it brings the mythic biscione.I cannot afford anymore the misery of some people…honestly your misery wears me gentlemen. Who do you think you are to judge if Brera is a real AR or not.I cannot understand why you have a negative attitude when you have not even driven Brera…you will find it strange but 1997 I owned a boxster and I found it the best car in its category in 1996…but today Porsche continue using the same frame…unacceptable!Also in the past I owned 916 GTV I found more emotion in Brera and you can continue writing whatever you want and having a personal contrary to me.Brera has the less rolling in its category and the sound of 2.2jts is better than 2.0jts/2.0ts….also v6jts has better sound than busso V6 euro 4 same with busso v6 euro 3.Brera and 159 due to AR’s to be perfect in every sector and thanks to their technical superiority approach better Jano’s philosophy (6c1500,6c1750,6c2300,6c2500,8c2900 ) more than alfetta or 75....for example 116 alfetta had mediocre brakes/gearbox,bad finish in reverse with AR’s tradition with 2000/2600 and it lacked romanticism/effeminacy in desing….for me Alfetta is a real AR but not as 159.

Ferrari=FIAT!From 1969 it is Fiat like it or not and was born as the official Alfa Romeo racing team.Modern F1 wants the technical help of a great research center of CRF(Centro Ricerche Fiat) and the economical help of a big Group like Fiat S.p.A.The R&D of Ferrari is based to subsidiary companies of Fiat,like CRF,Fiat Powertrain Technologies,Magneti Marelli,Teksid,Comau etc,in a greater percent than Lamborghini with Audi for the simple reason that Group Vag don’t have subsidiary companies to provide with some accessories and production machineries.Ferrari for example uses the same mechanism for electrical windows with maserati/alfa but uses different switch that means nothing.In R&D sector Ferrari uses knowhow/patents from research Fiat center like Teksid/Magneti Marelli and e-diff from CRF.It is true that small production of Ferrari makes it ideally in order to be tested solutions before enter mass production and an example is selespeed of MM which was introduced in 1999 in 355 F1…and next year followed 156 Selespeed and nowadays we have several versions with Fiats interface/gearbox changing mechanism that Fiat provides (except in companies of its Group) to τις BMW,Renault,Lamborghini,Aston Martin,Smart,Mercedes Benz.Also remember e-diff patent of CRF in 1998 and fitted in F430 in 2005 and in 2007 it will be fitted as rear differential to 159/Brera GTA!

In 70-80es and early 90es Ferrari used many secondary systems from Fiat models….From the mid 90es Fiat wanted to upgrade Ferrari’s image so it continued using the same mechanisms but with different switches in order to give better personality…..like an Aston Martin of that period had many commons with a Ford Sierra.

Alfa is Alfa…if Alfa Romeo did not exist then also Ferrai wouldn’t exist…..Ferrari avails everything to AR….despite it was quickly accepted when it was constituted in 1947 it did not become famous for its fast car…but because it brought the name of the mythic racing team AR IN GRAND PRIX…. scuderia ferrari.Go to pebble beach concours of elegance or concorso d'eleganza villa d'este and ask what ALFA ROMEO means?....and why ALFA is ALFA.And because some of you are ferraristi Enzo always spoke with great respect to AR and consider it as his mother….propably many of you lack of respect and don’t know that AR was the classic rival of Bugatti…that 8c2900b was more expensive from one T57 atlantique.AR is the company with the most entries in Top 100 most paid through the nose cars of all time!

Ferrari S.p.A. is subsidiary of Fiat S.p.A….i cannot understand what are you talking about different management.

Brand/companies and Groups that belong to Fiat Group

-Fiat
-Alfa Romeo
-Lancia
-Ferrari
-Maserati
-CNH Group(Case,New Holland,Steyr,Kobelco )
-Iveco Group(Iveco,Magirus,Astra,Irisbus,Seddon Atkinson)
-Magneti Marelli Group(Magneti Marelli,Automotive Lighting,Carello,Jaeger,Veglia Borletti,Seima,Cofap,Siem,Descam)
-Comau(μέσα και συστήματα παραγωγής,ρομποτική)
-Teksid(Teksid,Fonderie de Poitou,Funfrap,MP Magnesium,Sbfm)
-Business Solutions
-Itedi

Brera's philosophy
Combination of comfort and sportiveness,stockiness and high quality is sth of AR's tradition.AR with Brera/159 returns to its tradition and i do not speak about the last 20 years but for the last 96.Brera is with all the meaning of word a Gtv or Coupe Sprint if you want that is a Gran Turismo Veloce....it is not a sport edition and to be fair even Giulia had many differences with GTV and GTA.Brera is the direct successor of 1900 Sprint/1900 SS, Giulietta Sprint, 2000/2600 Sprint etc that represents 100% AR's cuore sportivo...if some people cannot understand this i don't know what else to say.Brera/159 are more italic than AR's of the last 2 decates...they are more close to Jano's (more than alfetta/75) philosophy cause AR tried to offer products that are top in every category...with nowadays data 159 is the successor of 1900 & Giulietta I.
 
Bmw/Porsche is an absolute Zero!Italians invented automobile…..I will only refer to some of AR’s innovations….but don’t forget companies like AQUILA ITALIANA/CISITALIA/FERRARI/FIAT/FOD/FRAM/ITALA/LANCIA/SIATA/CARROZZERIA TOURING

1)P3 (1932)-the first real one-seater racing car.In the beginning it used leaves of spring and then replaced from suspension of type Dubonnet.

2) 158 (1950)-magnesium engine block(consisted of two parts connected in common cylinder head)/crankcase/carter.The crankshaft was constructed from chromate/nickelic steel.

3) Bimotore (1935)-Luigi Badgi designed a new chassis that it could have 2 8cylinder engines placed front and rear of the driver.It had central differential which sent power in the rear axle through 2 transmission axis in Y shape.Independent suspension Dubonnet with 2 traverse placed tank.

4) Tipo 512 (1940)-12cylinder boxer,placed in the rear with the smallest bolt drive ever-
54mm.

5) RLSS TOURER (1925)-the first car with alouminium car body

6) Supercharger with variable geometry….80es(f1)

7) Water spray in combustion chamber(GTA)

8 ) Transaxle (rear disks inner placed)

9) Variable valve timing (Alfetta 2.0 Quadrifoglio Oro '83)..AR is also the first company to develop single variable timing (VVT like V-tec) at the end of 70es and double twinphaser (dualVVT like i-vvt-I for example)

Nowadays
Chassis steel spaceframe(Fiat Multipla,Alfa Nuvola)
Chassis Multisplit(CRF(Fiat Research center))
Chassis DualFrame(Stilo,Thesis)
First front multilink suspension (Lancia Thesis)
common rail unijet(Elasis,Fiat Research Center)
common rail II multijet(Elasis,CRF,Magneti Marelli)
Uniair electronic valve control(Elasis,CRF)
Multiair electronic valve control for diesel engines(Elasis,CRF)
Connect board(CRF)
Intellibus tv onboard(CRF,Boeing Phantom Works)
automotive windows(CRF,Microsoft)
E-diff differential(Ferrari F430)
Selespeed type sequential gearbox (Magneti Marelli)
DFN type sequential gearbox (Magneti Marelli)

Elegance and cuore sportivo was part of Alfa Romeo’s Dna.Alfa Romeo never constructed Spartan cars like Lotus....or sport without delicacy like Lamborghini…or extreme like Ferrari. Alfa Romeo is even more historical than Jaguar that appeared in the beginning of war world II.

1)Αlfa 6c2500 before 1900/2000/2600(sprint sz spider ssz etc) were rivals of Mercedes Benz και Jaguar...

2)Giulietta Spider was the rival of Porche 356 coupe/cabrio in Usa market.Porche was powerd from 1050cm3 & Giulietta from 1300cm3 & Spider had better performances from Porche 1600cm3.ONLY Porche 2000 had better performances than Giulietta Spider 1300.

3)Αlfa Romeo constructed the first supercar in automotive’s history with engine in front κινητηρα ( 8c2900b) type swb/lwb that infuenced nowdays supercars like 575M/SLR/SuperAmerica/612.

4)Alfa Romeo created roadster/spider with 6c1750 flyingstar and then followed
Z4/ Boxster/Spider Gtv.

5)Alfa Romeo created the first sport sedan (1900) in Ε seg and then followed series5/166.

6)Alfa Romeo created the first sport sedan in D seg.,the Giulietta and nowadays we have 159/σειρα3/Is/A4...etc

7) Αlfa Romeo created the first sport sedan in c seg,Alfasud and nowadays we have 147/σειρα1/Α3..etc

θ)Alfa Romeo is the company that has won the most pre-war GP’s(first with Αscari Ρ2 1920),Migle Miglia,Targa Florio,Le mans & the first 2 F1 gp’s.

9)Αlfa Romeo gave birth to Scuderia Ferrari which was its official racing team from 1929 until 1934.

10)Αlfa Romeo 3000 CM of 3,5lt was the rival of MB/Ferrari in Migle Miglia of 50es.Don’t mention 2000 bertone which had simiral performances with Ferrari Gt /45000cm3.

CONCORSO D’ELEGANZA VILLA D’ESTE
April 26th-28th, 2002
Concept cars & Prototypes
Sponsored by BMW

Winner: Alfa Romeo Brera, 2002
Coachbuilder: Coupe Italdesign - Giugiaro
Entrant: Fabrizio Giugiaro

CONCORSO D’ELEGANZA VILLA D’ESTE
April 25th-27th, 2003
Concept cars & Prototypes
Sponsored by BMW

Winner: Ferrari 12 cilindri, Rossa, 2000
Coachbuilder: Spider, Pininfarina
Entrant: Lorenzo Ramaciotti

CONCORSO D’ELEGANZA VILLA D’ESTE
April 23rd-25th,2004
Concept cars & Prototypes
Sponsored by BMW

Winner: Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione 2003
Coachbuilder: Alfa Romeo
Entrant: Wolfang Egger

CONCORSO D’ELEGANZA VILLA D’ESTE
April 22nd-24th,2005
Concept cars & Prototypes
Sponsored by BMW

Winner: Peugeot 907 Coupe 2004
Coachbuilder: Peugeot
Entrant: Robert Peugeot

CONCORSO D’ELEGANZA VILLA D’ESTE
April 22nd-23rd, 2006
Concept cars & Prototypes
Sponsored by BMW

Winner: Alfa Romeo 8C Spider, 2005
Coachbuilder: Alfa Romeo
Entrant: Wolfgang Egger (I)
 
159 is not a coincidental number.It was called caressingly ''alfetta''.It is the development of 158 Alfetta(1938-1950 dominated in the races)-first f1 world champion in 1950 with Nino Farina.159 won the 2nd world championship in the history of F1 in 1951 with Juan Manuel Fangio.....so 159 is not a coincidental number....how many other cars bring the name of an f1 world champion?So Alfa Romeo connects its modern model immediately with 159 F1 but also indirectly with Alfetta 1972.

159 1951
3-2-158.jpg


159
106-2-3885.jpg


Jeremy Clarkson for 159

It is an absolute gem.

-You're dead meat, top gun (Bmw E90)

-But do not pretend the 159 isn't there next time you want a mid-range four-door saloon because that would be a mistake. A bad one. First of all, it is exactly one million times better looking than a BMW 3-series. And with those triple headlamps, and perfect proportions, at least half a million times better looking than any rivals from Audi, Mercedes or Jaguar.

-Inside, it’s even better. The driving position is spot on, the dials look like they’ve come from a Swiss watch and the quality of the leather, especially if you have it in red, gives the mpression that it costs Rolls-Royce money.
-But it doesn't. A 159 Lusso, which is the luxury version, is £22,395. That's about what BMW charges for a 320i SE,but Alfa gives you far more equipment as standard and lots more power as well.

-Porsche engineered an exhaust rasp into the Boxster at 5000rpm to reward the sporty driver. Alfa hasn't bothered. It just gives you a simple four-cylinder engine that, all on its own, sounds better and better until you're up at 6500 when it sounds like a metallic werewolf.

-The handling is also sweet and yet the ride isn't even slightly uncomfortable.Which means that the 159 drives and feels like no other car in its class.

-And unlike any Alfa of the past, you don't have to machete your way through a million inconveniences to find the point.This car does not hide its gold watch up its behind.

-I’ve loved all Alfas. In fact I’ve argued time and again that nobody can be a petrolhead until they’ve owned one. It’s a rite of passage. Think of it as the great sex that leaves you with an embarrassing itch." :lol:


Verdict=A cult classic that should be a blockbuster

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-2101920,00.html


From 2002 156 had better material quality than E46….only A4 was superior but it was 3 years more fresh in assembling.

-Material quality
156 8
156 fl2002/rst2003 9.5
159 9.5
A4/A4 rst 9.5
C 9
3 Ε46 9
3 E90 9
-assembling
156 8
156 my2002/rst2003 8.5
159 9.5
Α4/A4 rst 9.5
3 Ε46 8.5
3 E90 9
C class 9
-leather quality
156 momo smerigliato 8
156 pieno fiore 10
159 tibet nappa 9
159 pieno fiore frau 10
3 E46 smerigliato 7
3 E46 nappa 9
3 E90 smerigliato 7
3 E90 nappa frau 9
A4 nappa 9
C 2000-2004 smerigliato 6
C restyling(nappa) smerigliato 7

6-8 points=smerigliato:natural leather…chemical processed…it gives a plastic feeling….mercedes had many years problems (it overcomed them in last series E) with this type of leather cause if the process is not proper the result will be mediocore.
10 points=nappa..leather processed with natural fibers of high quality or pig leather like the one of M bmw versions.
10 points pieno fiore… offered only from luxury manufactors(ferrari,bentley,maserati,rr,Aston martin etc.) & AR….premium manufactors (bmw,mb,audi etc.) offer at least nappa.

For those think Brera is expensive
For those we think Brera is expensive….are you joking?Have you ever seen basic equipment of Z4 and option prices?Brera 2.2JTS Distinctive has even leather seats and costs 43100euro (price in Greece)…Z4 2.0 with the same equipment with Brera 2.2 costs 50000euro…Brera is a bargain for what it offers…don’t even mention prices of the technicalyy inferior CLK230 with same equipment…and the choice of Brera against Z4 is also cultural and rationale matter…Z4 should cost 10.000euro less in order to have same value for money with Brera.Alfa Romeo is the company that gave birth to high class turism,combination of cuore sportive and luxury and you forget that ‘’Made in Italy’’ is synonymous to high quality….AR was never well known for it’s low-priced cars…..and nowadays it is best value for money….don’t mention in which price German’s will sell a car with the technical solutions and equipment of Brera/159….you must thing rationale…Alfa Romeo is not a charity institute!...as for 159,for me is the first real alfa in d segment for years the first complete d segment alfa since Alfetta… i think that many of you in theory alfisti doesn't know very good alfa's history...but only some products of the last decades...all alfa's till 2000/2600 berlina had for exaple state of the art quality..and even more recent giulia was sensibly heavier than a BMW 02...just like 159 over 3 e90...many of alfa classics were very heavy cars even compared to the rivals like for example the late 40's version of 6c2500 or even the first mass alfa the 1900...i think that many loose the point what is really alfa...alfa is not only pure sportiness is a way of sofisticated and elegant sportiness and with the recent models alfa return to it's tradition....Quality is sth made in Italy before the crisis of 70es with work stoppages…AR never produced low-priced cars…..in prewar period it constructed the most expensive cars with bugatti,in 50es it’s cars were in the same price tag with Mercedes and in 60es it’s cars were more expensive than those of Bmw.

156 vs 159

156 was a compromised product as dimensions...cause alfa wanted a 265cm wheelbase dualframe floorpan but at last they had to use an evolution of tipo 2 that couldn't be extended more than 260cm....so they had to make the compromise to make a car a little smaller from what they were wanting...they wanted a 4,5/4,52m car with 2,65m wheelbase and make a 4,43-4,44m with 2,595m wheelbase....so this was a result of a compromise....same compromise for 166 when alfa wanted a 2,8m wheelbase and Cantarella in order to spend less money doesn't let them use an evolution of the Kappa floorpan but constrict them to use the same floorpan with Kappa...so those 156 or 166 were technically compromised cars...surely if were developed as wanted the alfa management would have even more success...

Alfa 159 is a sport sedan not a sportcar neither Giulia 4door or 1900 were sportcars what you want an even sportier car...cause 159 is the sportiest sedan in offer in todays market with less weight(even i don;t think that in normal versions weight was a vaint for classic alfa's...usually weigh more than other cars of it's times)...towards uncompromised...alla cars are compromised except supercars and highend luxury lmousines....and surely 159 is the most uncompromised car in it's segment even if it's compromised as all not handmade cars...
The car you want is simply a brera that weight less is portier and is even more uncompromised than a 159...
Alfa 159 is the right car for alfa top succeed cause respect alfa tradition and is also an excellent car overall that is important for market......
As for grandeur as i said i find more grandeur in 159 than 156 that is carismatic but miss grandeur and importance things that 159 has...

Alfa 159 is a new reinterpretation of alfa spirit much more alfa than 75 or 156 that were really products carismatic surely but born in compromise.. alfa 159 has cues from many models of the past and ofcourse has much of the year 2000..as 1900 was an alfa of 1950 or Giulietta of 1955 or Giulia of 1962 or Alfetta of 1972...the 159 is a real alfa of 2005.. and imho the first real alfa since Alfetta...ofcourse as all cars has advantages and disadvantages nothing is perfect...but at the moment is the best car in it's segment an excellent car the new executive compact benchmark and that's something we had to see in alfa since alfetta.

Some say that found 159 souless…..it is not my fault if they went to make a test drive with the thought of driving sth like 156….159 has nothing to do with 156 but in philosophy it is compared with 166.A sport/luxury sedan not a small mediocore sport sedan that was 156 with all its negatives.In order our friends in America to understand I remind that all these years European alfisti complained that 156 has bad roll quality/aerodynamic noises/suspension noises and very often it oversteered.159 has sold all these problems and maintaines the same quick steering wheel but due to its bigger dimensions it is inferior in suppleness…also cause of its best roll quality in its category it does not transfers 100% of what is happening in the road like 156 did….this is true but for god shake decide once…Gentlemen do you want the best roll quality as all these years you were moaning?....if so,then you can’t transfer all the rubs of the road in the steering wheel!..face the reality and then complain about.

Some questions for you..... :lol:
Tell me why boxster or crossfire or slk350 or tt coupe 3.2 quattro which cost more than Brera 3.2JTS Q4 are also technical better?Expalin to me with arguments how a car (Brera 3.2) that offers better technical solutions than 630ci and costs less than Z4 3.0 which is technical inferior to slk350 boxster crossfire etc which are also more expensive than Brera is considered expensive?Brera is with all the objectivity the best car in its category and in some sectors by far better…this does not mean that it does not have negatives like all other cars but it is the one who is overall the best in its category.

Z4
Z4 has 4 times less torsional rigidity,inferior front suspension mcpherson,sensibly slower steering wheel,inferior braking system,lower build quality like all made in USA BMW and it does not offer high quality leather even in options list…inferior comfort-just try to make a trip for about 1000km and after tell me which of Brera-spider/Z4 would maintain higher average speed and at last already looks old-enough to say that one of the two production lines in south carolina closed and in the other one only 80% is activated. …..even MX5 2.0 is better than Z4 2.0…but

Brera 3.2 is even better than 630ci

-Brera 3.2JTS Q4 vs 630ci
-Torsional rigidity 207.000danm/rad vs 140.000danm/rad
-Front suspension,double wishbone vs mcpherson
-Rear suspension,multilink(Trilink with 3 basic arms & 2 assistant for small road anomalies/suspended weight) vs multilink(U link,development of the classic multilink that Bmw introduced in1990)
-transimission,4wd with 3 differentials which of them the central is Torsen-C second generation and also contains front differential that creates blocking effect up to 20% with initial ratio 43/57 that it can change (depends in road conditions/phase) from 22/78 up to 72/28 vs classic rwd with gearbox in pair with engine in front.
- 3.2lt engine V6 60degrees with Stoichiometric direct injection JTS and two phase variable timing Twinphaser 260ps/322nm(ron95)[265ps/330nm ron98] vs 6cylinder in row 3lt with indirect injection & valve control type valvetronic 258ps/300nm(ron98)
-Steering wheel immediacy 2,25turns with diameter of turn 10,7m vs 3turns with diameter in turn 11,4m
-More powerful braking system with (35,5m 100-0) and sound comfort.
-Less rolling in its category.
-infotelematic, connect+ με birdview & blue&me vs i-drive
-Leather,pieno fiore(poltrona frau)….same quality with Ferrari/Maserati/Jaguar/Aston Martin vs nappa (same quality leather with city cars like ypsilon)
-It has by far the most desing awards in modern automotive histroy
……………………….etc

AR vs Porsche
-As for Porsche’s quality it is not my fault that it does not use natural leather in versions covered with leather in the panel…also it is not my fault that Porsche uses alouminium imitation and not real aloumium like 159/Brera and sky leather quality in the doors which is even worse than nappa.
-It is not my fault that Boxster brakes 100-0 in 37,4m and Boxster S in 36,7m when Brera wants 35,5m
-It is not my fault that Brera (207.000 daNM/rad) has 4 times better torsional rigidity than those of boxster/slk/tt roadster/z4 and twice of TT coupe.
-It is not my fault that when Brera uses double wishbone in front the competition uses mcpherson……but Porsche uses double wishbone only in supercar Carrera Gt.
-It is not my fault that 159/Brera are the only cars in their category with double glassed windows and offeres the best sound comfort.
-It is not my fault that 159 is the only car in its category with full range of engines with direct injection
-It is not my fault that q4 torsen C/ii of Brera/159 is the best 4wd system in the market and new supercar Miura will be fitted with it.
-It is not my fault that AR continue having the fastest steering wheel and has solved the problem of high circle in turn….which is simiral to 3 Ε90 but 25% faster…2,25:1 vs 3:1....
-It is not my fault that new 4cylinders of AR have the highest specific power/torque between all the European 4cylinder engines.
-It is not my fault that 159 has the wider torsional bar and is the car with less rolling in its category without sacrifice comfort like 3 E90.
-It is not my fault that AR’S have the best equipment,best desing/aesthetics,more accessibly prices in option equipment and the best assurance (3 years free service and 3 years in all mechanical parts!)…compared to german manufactors.

Brera Rivals

-Brera in versions 2.2JTS, 2.4JTDm and future 3.0JTDm with length 4,41m is placed between SLK-CLK-Z4 and Series 4….there is not a direct rival.
-3.2JTS Q4 260hp is the rival of future Porsche Cayman 3.2 260hp and in 2008 the update version of 3.2jts with 290hp it will be the rival of Cayman S 3.4 295hp.
-GTA 440hp has the most close rival in typology/dimensions/transmission/cost the upcoming Carrera 4S 355hp.
-Spider 2.2JTS has not a direct rival cause of big dimensions 439x183 but it is compared with Z4 & SLK…..spider is even wider than SL or 911 Carrera Cabrio.
-Spider 3.2JTS Q4 is the direct rival of Boxster
-Spider GTA is the direct rival of 911 carrera 4 S Cabrio.

Alfa Brera/4, (bmw 3 coupe)/Z4, CLK/SLK, TT
Alfa Brera V6 / Porsche Cayman /
Alfa Brera GTA-Q4 / Porsche Carrera 4S
Alfa Spider / TT / SLK / Z4
Alfa Spider V6 / Porsche Boxster
Alfa Spider GTA-Q4 / Porsche Carrera 4S Cabrio
 
The beginning of the end...Alfasud and why AR left US market

This is propably one of my important posts….This is an answer to all alfisti that accuse Fiat for last 10 years AR’s image.They don’t know history and I feel disgusted from their moaning attidute.Our difference is that I don’t base my knowledge in books of Tabucchi,Fusi etc (that coppy previous writers or in traditions without make a serious quest) but I search history in every aspect….cause AR’s history has extension in other branches of medieval/roman period.Anyway lets get to the point of Fiat-AR connection.

There are books on the matter, not always objective point of views... I'll try to give you a quick insight.
Giuseppe Busso has been adamant to build a fwd Alfa since his very first day with the company in the 30s (with the Aeroplane division).
At the time it was like talking of ufos, so better times would come.
When he was appointed head of the projectual division, in the mid 60s, the idea was still in his mind, and after a few years project 103 was developed, body similar to Giulia, but smaller, part of the mechanical originated from Renault.
The project was way ahead of its time (most mid/small size cars were rwd) and both simple and sofisticated. Busso and his team believed in the simplicity and morereliabiity of this solution.
Only there was no resources enough to implement a mass production and more important projects had priority.
When Hruska came back to Alfa he was assigned the project of what will become Alfasud, so called for the new plant in Pomigliano (Naples), especially built from IRI (government owned) to increase employment in the rural south. Busso was disappointed that the project had not been assigned to him, but he recognizes Hruskw was a very good engineer.
The result, Alfasud as we know it, was a superb project mechanically, but it suffered from rust and bad assembling. Both were due to bad management of the production lines and stocks (close to the sea!!).
You must be aware of the fact that at the time state owned comanies in Italy had huge problems with workers: people faking to work, purposely sabotaging the lines, stealing parts and components to sell on the black market and so on.
The problem was much worse in Pomigliano, were politicians, just to get more votes, hired "pigs and dogs" as we say, people with no experience and no education to work.…all these are not Fiat workers!!!
The same problem will arise later in the nest 5/10 years in Arese, where unions were so strong to let workers totally compromise the factory.
They were people performing their own business as barbers, newssellers, private mechanics, ON THE BUILDING LINES, inside the factory.
A state employee could not be fired, no matter what... and they exploited the situation.

In 1984 Alfa was losing up to 300€ x car produced and sold because of bad management.

On the technical side, they had "drawers full of future projects" ahead of times once again (4wd as we see it now before audi, evolution of phaser as bmw 15 yrs later), but there was no money and no political will - te company had become a milkcow to suck money from. When Ford came out and offered 4 billion USD (1985/6) the obsolete italian establishment (with Romano Prodi at the wheel) managed under the desk to have Fiat offer half the price, and eventually the give it to the turin giants for nothing, with the motto "no foreings on Italian grounds..."

You must know the there always had been a bitter rivalry between Arese and Turin, they hated each other. Most old management in turin could not believe they could annihilate the old enemy,sth that does not happen nowadays with Luca di Montezemolo in head that many times has attacked in Bmw.

Alfa left US markets in 1996 for many reasons: fiat didn't want to spend money on it, it was a cost only to keep the channel open, models were not suitable for the market besides old old spider, and sales were inefficient and not profitable.

The economical problems of Alfa before fiat see above, after fiat are a group problem: in the mid 90s the family (Agnelli) tryed to pull out of car industry, diversifying with many other businesses. Most went bad, and the final stroke was EDF the french energy company they wanted to acquire... a blood bath!!...fiat wanted to become a conglomerate like general electric but as a result it had losses in automotive sector.
The car business was left afloat with no real ijection of resources and ideas. The worst management of all time (Cantarella) finished the job...
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… …………
So everything started from government connection between workers and state in late 70es before Fiat get involved…then people who were in head of AR from 70es until 1986 didn’t have the right experience/knowledge to inspire and to lead.Don’t forget that AR was many years national company and their workers had bad attidute sth that IRI wanted cause of their votes……Unfortunately some workers continue working with the same attitude and low productivity and the result is as we know it after fiat takeover…..so they were fired from Luca and I don’t care if this sounds tough but they get what they deserved!I don’t present everything like a fairy tale but as things happened and I don’t afford injustice,preconception and imprecision!

Also I remind you that business is circular.
Porsche was to close down before 10years (and nowadays is the main shareholder of VW….who told that small fish is eaten by the big one?)
PSA was to close before 13years.
GM is already smashed in Europe.
Fiat is a company with activities in many sectors not only in automotive and it is impossible to put on padlock.Fiat Group has nowadays bigger capitalization from General Motors Corp or Ford Motor Company
 
159....the new LEADER....NUOVA RAZZA ALFA

-ΑLFA ROMEO 159 4660mm / 1828mm / 1417mm
BMW 3 4520mm / 1817mm / 1421mm
AUDI A4 4586mm /1772mm / 1427mm
-100-0Km/h only in 36m
-Best sound comfort…67db in 120km/h
-Trim (basic) version of 159 has double glassed windows,electric rear windows,air condition sth that is option in basic german sedan versions….all this +equipment adds more than 50kg in 159’s weight
- Better T.Rigidity not only in its category but also from E/F seg sedans like Jaguar XJ, A8, 7series,S class (previous model)
Alfa 159 180.000daNM
BMW 3 E90 129.000daNM
Audi A4 126.000daNM
-Fastest lane change…159 1.9Jtd 130km/h,330i 122,9km/h
-159 1.9 JTD 150hp with 100hp less than 147Gta and 200kg heavier is faster.
159 1.9JTDm 150hp TA 62,9km/h
147 GTA 250hp TA 61,4km/h
Golf R32 62,7km/h(100kg lighter)
-5 stars rated in Euro NCAP
-159 1.9JTS 163hp/6500rpm 194nm/4500rpm
159 2.2JTS 189hp/6500rpm 235nm/4500rpm
159 3.2JTS Q4 265hp/6200rpm 328nm/4500rpm
TwinPhasher offers 85% of torque between 1500 & 6000rpm
159 1.9JTS replaces 156 1.8T.SPARK and offers better performances than 318i-2,0,Audi A4 2,0,C180 Kompressor & 9-3 1,8…
159 2.4JTDm Lexus IS220 D,X type 2.2D & A4 2.5TDI.
159 3.2JTS Q4 Jaguar X type 3.0V6 4x4, C350 4matic,C280 3.0V6 4matic.....
159 1.9JTDm A4 2.0TDI,X type 2.0D
159 1.9JTDm 8v............................................A4 1.9TDI
159 2.2JTS replaces 156 2.0 ΤS: 320i,X type 2.1V6 C200 Kompressor,Saab 9-3.
-159 vs Bmw 3
1858cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 160hp/6500rpm 190nm/4500rpm(168nm/2000rpm)
'18i' 1998cm3 L4 16v Valvetronic 129hp/5750rpm 180nm/3250rpm
.................................................. .............................................
2198cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 185hp/6500rpm 230nm/4500rpm(203nm/2000rpm)
'20i' 1998cm3 L4 16v valvetronic 150hp/6200rpm 200nm/3600rpm
.................................................. .............................................
3195cm3 V6 24v JTS TwinPhaser 260hp/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(285nm/2000rpm)
'30i' 2995cm3 L6 24v valvetronic 258hp/6600rpm 300nm/2500rpm
Alfa Romeo offers two diesel engines between 150 and 200hp...and bmw only one..so is a matter of choice
-The best finishing-material quality in its category…mass use of real alumium.
-Three leather choices from Frau (an icon of made in italy that is main provider of Ferrari/Maserati/Jaguar/AM).
-3 years guarantee in mechanical parts when Germans offer 2 and 3 years free service.
-------------Alfa 159 1.9JTDm BMW 320d
90-130(in 3a) 9,5 sec 9,2sec
90-130(in 4a) 8,4sec 8,4sec
90-130(in 5a) 10,4sec 11,0sec
90-130(in 6a) 15,0sec 15,1sec
and that with 13hp and 20nm less than bmw, and 118kgr more index of a fantastic gearbox.
braking
50-0 10m 10,4m
90-0 31,6m 32,8m
130-0 64m 67m
159: 225/50 ZR17 320d: 225/45 WR17
Alfa 159 in their tests with a worst power to weight ratio make best performance than bmw 3 series...and the bmw performance in skidpad was dull..
-Choice of FWD/4WD with mechanic q4 torsen C/II
-159 won all German competitors in both German-French Mastertest despite having the worst power to weight ratio..also it wins Series 3 in all european mags (Holland-Denmark-Greece-france) except those from Germany.
- even the fwd 159 has better handling stability and direction with same traction with a rwd car like 3 series....the 159 with q4( that is the only three differential with central torsen-c differntial four wheel drive far more sofisticated than audi single central torsen quattro) has road abilities that can compared only to maserati quattroporte...alfa 159 has the best mix of comfort and handling is really miraculous the way a car like 159 with a bit softer set up than standard 3 series have less roll, better comfort and handling, ofcourse there are some explanations for that...first of all the chassis with 31.400nm/deg has 40% higher torsional rigidity than 3 e90, the double wishbone front suspension that is more serious with thicker wishbons than those used in 147/156/166/Gt specially compared to the mcpherson strut that use bmw, very interesting is also the new rear multilink that is more sofisticated than that used on 3 series...in all that we have to add a steering wheel far more precise and 40% quicker with 2,25 turns compared to 3,0 of bmw 3 e90 and that with the same turing cicle 11,1m that was a problem for 156 now solved....
-159 is 120/125kgr heavier than 3 e90...but we have to consider the sofisticated modular with class leading torsional rigidity premium multisplit floorpan....that type of floorpan add almost 50kgr over traditional floorpans but we have gains in modularity of use to other models even with rwd simlpy changing one-two frames or subframes...to that add 30kgr for the choice to have double glazed windows....an exclusivity for the segment that improves and put on top of the class the 159 comfort...so at last the difference between fwd 159 and rwd 3 e90 is not more than 40kgr in that we had to add the better equipment of 159 and the fact that is a bit longer...so infact the car is not as heavy as many think but the weight comes as a result of some choices(multisplit floorpan double glazed windows and better equipment)
-In 0-100 bmw 3 series has a so good performance cause of a trick(the same used by delta hf integrale...)...you change the speed a bit after the 100km/h...where in 159 you make the change just before the 100km/h...and that is something you could se in 0-60mph
330xi has a 6,4sec 0-100km/h and a 6,3sec 0-60mph with 98ron fuel ofcourse
159 3.2jts q4 has a 7,0sec 0-100km/h and a 6,6sec 0-60mph with 95ron fuel.....so i think that as acceleration if we use same fuel 159 3.2JTS Q4 matches the 330xi..
For me is much more fair alfa or lexus that announce performance even for their direct injection engines with 95ron fuel....bmw or audi is not fair cause their data would be much different with different quality of fuel...
-159 offers the most complete technology pack in it's segment...double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension the higher torsional rigidity in it's segment, the first car in the world with multisplit floorpan, the faster steering wheel in it; segment, the first car with a line up exclusively with dierct injection engines,the first car in the world with passenger mounted knees airbag,the first car in it's segment with double glazed windows, the most sofisticated 4wd with three differential and central torsen-c in it's segment, high cut gearboxes...the best brakes in the segment...high quality interior with high quality material and the only car except luxury makers to offer pieno fiore leather quality trim.....a car that won the former leader the former benchmark in every single handling or energy safety test...a car that has the record of lane change in it;s segment with over 130km/h....cutting edge alfa technology......
Alfa Romeo 159 offer better handling than anything in it's segment but offers also more comfort than a bmw,audi,jag or mb..sounds strange but is a reality...159 with a suspension with major excursion and also a bit softer than a 3 series roll less(1,2 degrees with standard suspension)...and handles better in all situations so i don't see your point...when you can offer more..handling+comfort...why offer less?...
After alfa romeo is not only cars like 75 or Giulietta....but also cars like 1900 or 2000/2600 berlina refined and with Gt character...Alfa is neither lotus neither lamborghini..alfa is not pure sportiness is like her daughterbrand ferrari is sport combined with elegance and sofistication that's what alfa is about from 1910 to 2005...

After 30 years AR offers the best sedan in D seg in every aspect…..and that’s why Clarkson consideds it as "an absolute gem."

Bmw3 fails to have better material quality(cheap hard plastics) even than A4 which is 3 years older in development….159’s materials are also better in appeal and anyone you has tested both cars will understand.
159’s production stopped in order to increase the quality control after production not during-so it has nothing to do with the methods used to construct 159…also you must consider the launch delay in some European countries......the launch in the major lefthanddrive markets of europe was scheduled in the period between end of september and october and differ from country to country as it's natural(that happens always…..147 restyling for example was launched in Italy France and Spain in November but in most other markets in January...and in some others even laters so many things depends even in the national strategy of the importer)...UK as Australia New Zealand and Japan are markets appart cause have righthanddrive...and always the cars are launched there a bit later..in UK the launch was made after the christmass holidays... Up to now 76% of orders are for outside italy market.

In buying & owning sector 159 is the only European car that offers 3 years assurance and 3 years free service.Companies of leasing & renting say that 159’s residual value has increased compared to that of 156….20% in Italy,10% Germany/Spain/France.Fiat Group according to Swiss Union of Banks will be the most profitable European carmaker of 2006.Stock value has been doubled and nowadays Fiat Group has greater capitalization from Ford Motor co and Gm corp.

German mastertest

Some comments from German mastertest where 159 demolished German competition.

Suspension
Front and rear suspension is constructed from aluminium.As a result we have rapid response,low lifted weight and great torsional rididity.It has excellent fine tuning and the rear multilink suspension has been designed in order to occupy less space….as a result electronic systems such as asr/msr/vdc are useless.


Lane change in wet
Theoreticaly rwd cars have an advantage (traction) but again the first place goes to 159.

Βmw 320d
The new series 3 is the best ever…but the responsible for the developmet of the car must start pondering cause Bmw couldn’t win 159 in every single dynamic test.

Stability test in turn….159 1st.....3 11th....a4 6th...C 7th
Wet Lane Change....159 1st....3 3rd........a4 9η.......C....10th
Lane Change........159 1st.....3 3rd......A4 9th........C 2nd....
Slalom.........159 1st........3 3rd........A4 9th.......C 7th......
Reindeer test...159 1st..........3 2nd........A4 11th........C 3rd...

407
In active safety it was not so stable but with the help of ESP it could control better the cargo transfer.This is a typical example of the different philosophy between sportive 159 and 407 family sedan.

The article also says for 159...a class of its own.
-It is the first car to be fitted with knee-airbag
-It has the stiffer frame,cause the bodyshell uses both high-strength, dual-phase steels and multi-thickness metals welded partly using laser technology.
-It is by far the most beautiful sedan in d seg.
-It gives emotions in the driver that cannot be found in the other cars of the d seg.The most fun to drive.
-Frame’s immediacy,steering wheels/suspension accurancy (COLPO DI GENIO) and the general setup is sth untouched from the rest d seg.

As for performances
-159 1.9JTS replaces 156 1.8T.SPARK and offers better performances than 318i-2,0,Audi A4 2,0,C180 Kompressor & 9-3 1,8…
- 159 2.4JTDm…………………………………. Lexus IS220 D,X type 2.2D & A4 2.5TDI.
-159 3.2JTS Q4…………………………………. Jaguar X type 3.0V6 4x4, C350 4matic,C280 3.0V6 4matic.....
-159 1.9JTDm…………………………………….. A4 2.0TDI,X type 2.0D
-159 1.9JTDm 8v............................................A4 1.9TDI
-159 2.2JTS replaces 156 2.0 ΤS/JTS……………. 320i,X type 2.1V6 C200 Kompressor,Saab 9-3.

It is true that 159 3.2 Q4 is slower in a straight than the lot lighter Bmw 330i (real competitor is 330xi) but in a mixed route it will give a great handling lesson to Bmw like heavier/-hp Quattroporte limo did in hypothetic ‘’supercar’’ Bmw M5.

Alfa 159 is a real alfa...probably more real alfa than the rwd 75...and that cause alfa have to be for tradition a class benchmark and 75 was surely nice to drive car but in an very old basis(from '72 Alfetta) and poor in all other aspects even the design wasn't at the height's of alfa's tradition...for me 159 is the first real alfa in d segment for years the first complete d segment alfa since Alfetta(alfa 147 is a real alfa a superbe interpretation of alfasud theme)...i think that many of you in theory alfisti doesn't know very good alfa's history...but only some products of the last decades...all alfa's till 2000/2600 berlina had for exaple state of the art quality..and even more recent giulia was sensibly heavier than a BMW 02...just like 159 over 3 e90...many of alfa classics were very heavy cars even compared to the rivals like for example the late 40's version of 6c2500 or even the first mass alfa the 1900...i think that many loose the point what is really alfa...alfa is not only pure sportiness is a way of sofisticated and elegant sportiness and with the recent models alfa return to it's tradition....
All cars of last decates like 75 had most of their accessories constructed from independent manufactors.75 is a product of political choice (that period AR belonged to the state) and crisis in the inside of AR….So they forced to use Alfettas 116(1972) frame and also to maintain some parts of Giuliettas II (also based in 116) car body cause they didn’t have money to invest to a totally new model.Despite all this they worked hard with dignidy and the result was good but mediocore in desing compared to AR’s tradition….also the quality was mediocore,when all Alfa’s until 2600 were famous for their build/material quality….But in general 80es was the worst decate for Desing.

After alfa romeo is not only cars like 75 or Giulietta....but also cars like 1900 or 2000/2600 berlina refined and with Gt character...Alfa is neither lotus neither lamborghini..alfa is not pure sportiness is like her daughterbrand ferrari is sport combined with elegance and sofistication that's what alfa is about from 1910 to 2005...
 
Brera vs TT

Previous TT was dangerous in the limit....don't even speak about stability problems that send many germans to the other world....also i remind you the reliability problem in the rear axle when in many occasions one of the arms broke down and caused many deadly accidents at 160km/h....sth that lead to many TT recals cause of bad assembly of the rear axle and material miss (amazing German reliabilty :D )...those are some of the reasons that TT sales drop down so quickly after the initial success specially in Germany.

New TT uses the platform of the new golf with multilink(fourlink) rear, mcpherson front and front wheel drive or haldex 4wd(not torsen twin diff c like AR…audi uses simple torsen c only in its top models like S4/RS4/S6/S8 and concept R8 ),simple type of rear multilink (brera uses rear tri-link with 5 arms and has the fastest steering wheel in the seg ), with aluminium-steel body and bigger dimensions(more compact than brera or cayman) than the old TT.....would be a rival for brera in theory but technically as you see is not the best....but is better than the actual model.

Brera 3.2JTS Q4 weight din 1630kgr eu 1705kgr
Four TT 3.2V6 weight din 1410kgr eu 1485kgr
TT is 23cm shorter than Brera (you cant compare them 100% directly cause TT is a sports coupe and Brera is a GTV-Gran Turismo Veloce) becase it uses a platform of seg. C.Imagine how much TT would weight if it had a platform derivered from A6,a serious 4wd scheme torsen type c,double wishbone in front not mcpherson,a rear suspension more sophisticated and not derivered from Golf and finally a panoramic roof in glass in order to improve the sound comfort.

TT interior in Top version
http://www.speedycars.net/files/wallpap ... E5BD0B.jpg
http://www.km77.com/marcas/audi/2007/tt/gama/gra/30.jpg

Brera interior in in intermediate preparation....
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9761/2149hh.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1338/2155nb.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7162/2139uc.jpg

New TT gives the impression of a toy.The wheels are unacceptable and in spite of being 18R due to their desing they look smaller than what they are…..just not to mention how it will look in basic versions with 16 or 17R wheels.I also don’t like the front which is miniaturization of Q7…it would look better if it used same solution with shootingbrake concept…in the rear thanks to the thorough window U looks higher than it actually is….sth simiral happens with cayman.The interior is a step backwards compared to the old TT.The combined use of steel-aluminiun (also the torsional rigidity will be worse than Golf that uses in all structural parts steel) in the chassis obviously is not a good solution….a great example is Bmw 5 which took only 3 stars in EURO NCAP and in the second test with some minor improvements and the add of belt reminder it took 4 stars marginally.In a car with smaller dimensions like TT the results could be worse.Thats why in USA Bmw 5/6 have increased insurance cause after an accident it is very difficult to reconstruct…also due to its aerotype welding solution.It is based in a cheap/compact platform (c seg.) same with Golf/Leon/Altea/Octavia/Touran/A3/Toledo when Brera uses the platform (e/f seg.-premium) of 159 and has simiral torsional rigidity with Quattroporte which is same with monocoque carbon fiber of F40.
Finally it has mcpherson in the front and haldex (they sell it as Quattro lol),and is supposed as a sports car.

Then I will have to remind you the comparative between Brera 3.2 and Audi TT ShootingBrake in UK Car of March.Audi TT concept had 50hp more than TT 3.2,ceramic brakes,19R wheels,better finishing/ material quality in the interior and it did not have handbrake….and it lost to Brera 3.2 which was a pre production version and it had winter tyres sth that affects handling/performances…they said that TT does not have character,lack of accuracy (compared to Brera) and ofcource not the looks of Brera….TT looks like a toy when it is compared with the most beautiful car of the year…a car that is value for money (cheaper than TT 3.2 that is based in same platform with Octavia) ,offers a technical level even higher than Bmw 630 in case of Brera 3.2 and has the looks of an Italian supercar.Brera is the successor of Sprint SS & GTV which is a Gran Turismo not a GranSport or GTA version…and that’s why is perfect…just make a 10hour journey with Brera/Cayman and you will see with which of them you can maintain higher average speed…..thats the point…combination of speed,roll quality and driving pleasure…sth that has nothing to do with cold numbers [despite Brera 3.2 has achieved 0-100 ( auto magazine ) in 6.5secs when AR announces 6.8sec]

Cayman in spite of being short it looks tall for a sports car……even in comparison with its sister boxster that have simiral height and in common most parts of the car body…sth was wrong in the retrofit:D .Brera has won at least 10 awards at the last 7 months.New version of Cayman is the rival of Brera 3.2JTS Q4.It is wrong to compare normal version of Brera 3.2 with the sport version of cayman,which is S.Sport versions of Brera will be introduced but in terms of performances/architecture/transimission it will be more comparable with Carrera 4S and not Cayman S…an intermediate version of Brera between 3.2 and 4.2GTA could be the rival of Cayman s.The interior of Cayman S has sth to mention about but the interior of cayman is funny to be compared with Brera. Brera 2.4JTDm/3.2JTS has the biggest braking disks in the seg. even in it’s normal version.Brera 3.2 has long gear ratio…for example second gear does not exceeds 120km!....in other words with Brera 3.2 you can make an overtake (80-120km) with second gear….or 120-160km with third….sth unattainable for most of the cars….in Brera you get used to drive with different gears….you can reach top speed with fifth gear…cause 6th gear is only used for fuel saving in the motorway.

Brera/Spider 3.2JTS Q4/2.4JTDm 330x28mm 4pistons(4x41mm) Brembo
Cayman S/Boxster S 318x28mm 4p. Brembo
RX8 323x28mm
350Z 320x28mm
Cayman/Boxster 298x24mm

Brera 2.2JTS has simiral price to TT 2.0TFSI but you cannot compare a naturally aspirated engine with a turbocharged.A 2.0lt turbocharged engine has simiral torque with a 3.0lt n.a. engine and bigger service cost.For example Jaguar (x type 3litre VS s type 3litre) and Bmw (330ci vs 630ci) offer better mechanical parts but worst performances due to bigger dimensions in higher cost…in the other hand AR offers a coupe (with supercar looks) in terms of value for a higher segment and sells it in the price tag of a smaller seg…..and you are still complaining about price.In the past AR were famous for its high pricing. Alfa Romeo 1900C Cabriolet Pininfarina '53 had a price of 29.000 CHF, 1000chf more than a Mercedes Benz 300SL '54 "Gulwing" and only 2000 chf less than RR Silver Dawn…and that wasn’t the most expensine model of AR you could buy.Spider 3.2 exclusive costs in Italy/France/Sweden more than boxster or. slk280.Brera is already a sales blockbuster in it’s category and with the upcoming version it will dominate.For example in Austria Brera is ahead of CLK,SLK,Z4….same for Sweden…in France only CLK is ahead of Brera (for about 9-10 cars) and that’s because new Spider is not yet available….enough to say that they were sold in May (France) 131 Brera vs 33 Z4 Coupe & roadster....As for 159…last month it had in Europe same sales with 156’s best month…and Sportwagon is not in full production yet!The rival of TT 2.0TFSI is the future Brera 2.2JTB and the rival of Brera 2.2JTS is the future TT 2.0FSI.Natural aspirated engines have better sound,weigh less and rev higher…in general they have a more sport character and that’s why AR and Bmw don’t use them a lot.In the past nobody compared 164 V6 TB with 520/ Ε200 but with 164 2.0TS.Performances of 2.2JTS are better than its direct rivals like CLK200/CLK200, 320ci e92 and the future TT 2.0FSI.Tell me an n. aspirated 4cylinder engine of a premium company around 2.0lt with more than 185hp and 230ΝΜ…it does not excist…. Audi-VW 2.0FSI--> 150hp/200ΝΜ and Bmw’s 2.0lt engine only in it’s limited version (2500) boosts 173hp/200nm sth that raises fuel consumption at 22%+ In order to be political correct you cant compare TT to Brera.Brera has mechanical parts of seg. C and length 4.18m and TT uses mechanical parts of seg. E and has a length of 4.41m….except price and the thing that they are both coupe’s they have nothing else in common.

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2006/motor_s ... y/102.html
f52654c9a28c8408d6d03352795660ea_1.jpg

Red style and blue style are combinations with character of old GTV.Brera has also classic combos with dashboard in black,two-colour between dashboard&seats and dashboard-door panel dressed in leather….so brera is offered in many combos (classic,a la mode & vintage ) a customizing level that it was only offered in the past from maserati/Ferrari or Aston martin…personally I love those vintage combos but you must choose the proper exterior colour to fit with.Those combos are more often seen in concours of elegance cause those people know about desing and colours….and ofcource they don’t have the german cold approach with classic combos between grey-black…a total lack of passion.

TT even in version with magnetic suspension it has not good grip in front….another driving mediocrity from audi…..Car wrote that TT lacks the accuracy of Brera and Jeremy C. said-More worrying is a slight lack of front-end grip. I tried the car back to back with the new Alfa Brera and while that car has several issues — a complete lack of brake horsepower being the most notable — grip wasn’t one of them.

It turned in nicely to a corner and held on, while the Audi was slithering off into the bushes. I bet it could be cured by specifying better tyres.
….also we must add that the 3.2 sounds like an electric device sth that kills the sport spirit.If you have seen it live new TT has worse desing than its successor and less aluminium used in the interior….tha plastic are better but not in Brera’s level.Don’t even mention that the navigator of TT is not coloured…it could use same navigator with Α4 and not the economic of 3/golf/leon/octavia/altea/toledo/touran....don’t mention that Brera’s interior can be fully dressed with pieno fiore of poltrona frau.

350Z in its last version has 300cm/2 and 40hp more…a version of 3.2 Brera with 300hp it will be easily faster cause the better grip (4wd).Brera 3.2 is a normal version (that follows AR’s tradition in GT/GTV cars) and not a sport version
Weight comparison for those that think Brera is heavy.
350Ζ 1610-1630kgr EU/350Ζ Roadster 1705-1725kgr
Brera 3.2JTS Q4 1680-1705kgr EU/Spider 3.2JTS Q4 1740-1765kgr
Don’t forget that 4wd weights 80-110kg more…the glass roof adds 20-30kg….350z is 1,5cm/9,5cm less in width/length and it has not space for rear passengers….brera has for two children or for ladies….if 350z had Brera’s features it would easily weight 1800-1820kg.

Bmw uses what works best (mcpherson in front)…. Double wishbone in front and a fast steering wheel can change the setup 100% …..i remind you the 24Hour test in the track of mag. Auto where 147 had the least tyre/brake attritions and thanks to the setup it left 116i,Α3 1.6FSI,Golf 1.6FSI etc many rounds behind.As for M3 don’t say that it’s mediocre braking system is not sth important…..in a car with 343hp!...also the front scheme is unacceptable for a wannabe sports car as well the slow steering wheel with 3 turns to lock….it is not enough for a sports car to have a strong engine and a proper setup…it must decelerate too…even after 2-3 powerful brakings.And its the most important factor in a country route while overtaking and braking before a tight turn.Porsche neither Bmw can give you the same feeling of accuracy with Brera.Then I am fed up with some journalists that cannot appreciate a well made chassis with a Gt setup.A great example is maserati Coupe in its new version gransport…..same Journalists changed their opinion for this car just because gransport has a little more sport setup.Those gentlemen should drive Brera Q4 and 350z in autostrada della Cisa and then talk…if they cannot understand the meaning of a GTV (not GS/SS) car then it is not my fault.Even the ridiculous Autocar said that Brera 2.2 is sportier than golf r32 & rx8 231ps and preferred it in terms of driving experience sth that has nothing to do with cold dragster performances.

Brera 220.000daNM/rad= ca. 38.400nm/deg.
Z4 Coupe 32.000nm/deg.= ca. 183.500daNM/rad
Cayman 31.500nm/deg.= ca. 180.500daNM/rad
new TT 28.500nm/deg.= c.a. 163.400daNM/rad
 
Enzo was the first to respect AR more than anyone and when his son Dino died he asked to go to the funeral with an Alfa 164.

Top 10 Most Expensive Cars Ever Auctioned

1. 1931 Bugatti Royale Kellner Coupe
2. 1929 Mercedes-Benz 38/250 SSK
3. 1931 BugattiRoyale Berline De Voyager
4. 1962 Ferrari 330 TRI/LM Testa Rossa
5. 1966 Ferrari 330 P3
6. 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO
7. 1930 Bentley Speed Six
8. 1935 Duesenberg SJ Speedster
9. 1937 Alfa-Romeo 8C-2900
10.1956 Ferrari 410 Sport

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Million-Dollar Sales
The cars pictured below have each sold for over $1,000,000; this table does not include cars that were bid to over $1,000,000 but did not sell. This page also contains cars that may not yet be active in our auction database. These listings will be unavailable until they are made active and are only listed here for your convenience. Please check back for the most current information.

January 2005-->january 2006
https://www.sportscarmarket.com/auction ... rsales.php

Where is historic Porsche/Bmw/Audi?
Year Marque/Model Sold At Company Location Date
1967 Ferrari 275 GTS/4 Spyder $3,960,000 Gooding & Co. Pebble Beach, CA USA 08/21/2005
1938 Talbot-Lago T150C $3,685,000 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1937 Talbot-Lago T150CSS $3,535,000 Christie's Monterey, CA USA 08/18/2005
1954 Oldsmobile F-88 $3,240,000 Barrett-Jackson Scottsdale, AZ USA 01/26/2005
2004 Ferrari F1/F2004 $3,200,670 Sotheby's IT 06/28/2005
1934 Duesenberg J $2,750,000 RM Auctions Phoenix, AZ USA 01/28/2005
1962 Aston Martin DB4GT $2,695,000 RM Auctions Phoenix, AZ USA 01/28/2005
1964 Ford GT40 $2,502,500 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1930 Mercedes-Benz 38/250 SS $2,394,000 Bonhams Monaco 05/16/2005
1933 Bugatti Type 59 Supercharged $2,391,915 Bonhams UK 06/24/2005
1940 Maserati 8CL $2,204,235 Sotheby's IT 06/28/2005
1933 Duesenberg SJ $2,200,000 Gooding & Co. Pebble Beach, CA USA 08/21/2005
1963 Shelby Cobra $2,133,025 Russo & Steele Scottsdale, AZ USA 01/28/2005
1932 Alfa Romeo Tipo B P3 $2,100,000 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1972 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona $1,980,000 RM Auctions Amelia Island, FL USA 03/12/2005
1970 Ferrari 512 S $1,947,000 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1957 Jaguar XK-SS $1,925,000 Gooding & Co. Pebble Beach, CA USA 08/21/2005
1955 Jaguar D-type $1,815,000 Gooding & Co. Pebble Beach, CA USA 08/21/2005
1950 Ferrari 166 MM $1,760,000 RM Auctions Amelia Island, FL USA 03/12/2005
1932 Duesenberg J $1,700,000 Kruse Int'l Houston, TX USA 12/09/2005
1935 Duesenberg SJ $1,650,000 RM Auctions Rochester, MI USA 08/06/2005
1953 Buick Roadmaster $1,620,000 Barrett-Jackson West Palm Beach, FL USA 04/01/2005
1935 Bugatti Type 59/50B $1,470,754 Bonhams UK 09/16/2005
1965 Shelby Daytona $1,457,500 Russo & Steele Monterey, CA USA 08/20/2005
1959 Ferrari 250 GT TdF $1,457,500 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1958 Ferrari 250 GT TdF $1,441,265 Bonhams CH 12/17/2005
1953 Ferrari 250 MM $1,430,000 RM Auctions Phoenix, AZ USA 01/28/2005
1973 Matra-Simca MS670B Barquette $1,395,615 Bonhams Monaco 05/16/2005
1961 Ferrari 250 GT $1,327,372 Sotheby's IT 06/28/2005
1933 Duesenberg SJ $1,320,000 RM Auctions Amelia Island, FL USA 03/12/2005
1969 Ferrari 312 $1,320,000 Gooding & Co. Pebble Beach, CA USA 08/21/2005
1959 Ferrari 250 GT Cabriolet Spyder $1,320,000 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1963 Shelby Cobra $1,292,500 Russo & Steele Monterey, CA USA 08/20/2005
2005 Ferrari Enzo $1,274,229 Sotheby's IT 06/28/2005
1965 Ferrari 1512 Formula One $1,115,000 Christie's Monterey, CA USA 08/18/2005
1930 Bugatti Type 43 $1,115,000 Christie's Monterey, CA USA 08/18/2005
1930 Alfa Romeo 6C 1750 Gran Sport $1,100,000 The Worldwide Group Seabrook, TX USA 04/30/2005
2003 Ferrari Enzo $1,080,000 Kruse Int'l Seaside, CA USA 08/19/2005
1938 Mercedes-Benz 540K $1,035,991 Bonhams UK 12/05/2005
1954 Porsche 550 $1,034,000 Gooding & Co. Pebble Beach, CA USA 08/21/2005
1938 Mercedes-Benz 540K $1,017,500 RM Auctions Monterey, CA USA 08/19/2005
1972 Maserati Boomerang $1,000,000 Christie's France 02/12/2005

https://www.sportscarmarket.com/auction ... hp?ShowAll
 
How AR was sold to Fiat

Everything begins in 1974.In that year Ing. Orazio Satta dies and some months later general manager of AR Luraghi,gets fired cause he was in same position with some politicians who wanted to construct an AR factory in their territory (The factory Patrola Serra in Avellino where ARNA was build from Satta and Luraghi).Until then everything was going well in AR wich was the unique state profitable company.Then everything went wrong….such as political operations,bad managing, ,some past wrong choices, lack of money for desing and new models development and new concepts were cancelled.

1)In the end of 50es Satta and Busso wanted to build a small fwd AR until 1100cc for the European market.Fiat did not like that idea because did not want to be in rivality with AR.After political will the idea was abandoned and it will remain as a concept with Alfa Romeo 103 fitted with a 1300cc engine.This idea comes back with Luraghi in 60es when Italian government institutes favorable laws for companies that want to construct factories in south Italy in order to face the problem with inland immigration (from south to north city metropolis sth tha has economic/social affect).As a result in 1967 begins the construction of the factory Pomigliano d'Arco.The production of Alfasud started in 1971.Fiat disagrees but this time cannot do anything and as a result does it’s own plans for the creation of a factory in south italy (1969).The problem with Concept Alfasud had to do with the taxation status quo in Italy that punished cars with more than 1.600cc.So AR based the sales of Alfasud in the entry level version with the 1.200cc engine (mid 70es)

2)With the choice of 1.200cc engine for Alfasud AR abandones an entire segment (C and D SEG.) a category that AR created in Europe with serie σειρές 1900/giulietta/giulia.Instead of focusing in that segment in order to dominate the market they turned with Alfasud more in Italian market…..and as a result it lefts an open area to it’s rivals (specially to Bmw which introduced serie 1600 in 1964) to monopolize.

3)In the other hand project Alfasud despite be a good product In terms of mechanical parts it has bad sales because the construction in Pomigliano d'Arco is not in acceptably quality (assembly/materials).Members of brigate rosse and the left side parties who were working in the factory sabotaged production lines.

4)V6 engine of Busso was ready to debut in 1974 with Alfetta but due to oil crisis in 1973 it debutes 5 years later (1979) in an already old/failed concept…the Alfa6.

5)In the beginning of 70es AR was ready to fit in Alfetta a six speed gearbox (15 years before the rivals did) abandones the project cause of lack of money and AR presents in 1977 Giulietta tipo 116 as an alternative to Alfetta.That was a choice in order to run out stock engines neither that it believes in the success of the new model that it continues to run with Alfetta in the production lines (1984).

6)January of 1987 the European members activate an agreement for open market in which you cannot tonnage products that come from foreing eu countries and the subsidization through the state budget the domestic products.As a result Bmw and Audi cars were sold in Italy in the lowest price in all European countries members of eu comity.

So AR had to be sold or to be nationalized like Renault.In 1987 Bmw was interested for R&D department and Balocco plants but not for AR production lines (cause it dominated in sports sedan segment )so the negotiations to buy AR dropped down.Then Ford came out and offered 4 billion USD (ford wanted to shut down Pomigliano d'Arco).Until that time Fiat did not seem that wanted to buy AR but it started a campaign against ford for the AR sale in foreing hands.As a result after the reaction of the worker unions AR was sold to Fiat.
Fiat introduces a plan to Italian government and to Finmeccanica and promises:
1)The creation of a company Alfa-Lancia with a production of 600.000 cars per year….300.000 of them were AR.
2)To invest between (1987-1991) 5 trillion pounds to AR….75% of the investment was for the factories.
3)AR was sold to fiat for Five doses of one trillion pounds each….the first dose started in January of 1993.
4)Fiat promised to develop and improve plants of Arese (today they are some small offices/test tracks)
5)Production of 164/Thema in Arese and 33/75/Y10 in Pomigliano

Source Il Mito Alfa Romeo του M.Vitale ,Edizioni Egea2004
Luraghi, l'uomo che invento la Giulietta του R.Gianola, Edizioni Baldini 2000
Site of W.Molino

Does anyone has more information (any link) to add in that matter or anything to correct in my article?
 
non legge come del resto hanno fatto gli altri....

nel delirio più totale c'è scrito persino che Ferrari andò al funerale di suo figlio Dino con una 164, peccato che la 164 è stata prodotta 31 anni dopo la morte di Dino...
allora o è arrivato in ritardo, o chi ha scritto era un pò alterato.. :baby)

parli di grande filosofiA costruttiva su Brera e 159, io dico quello che provo le chiacchiere stanno a 0 ...e quello che ho provato è che Brera e 159 sono delle piccole Mercedes piatte nemmeno troppo potenti e anonime, è ben più divertente la mia Gt con pinale TIPO...naturalmente sono pareri....ma con 18 anni di patente e avendone provate parecchie se permetti ho il mio giudizio..


Su una cosa hai sacrosanta ragione la 912/911 altro non era che un maggiolino stirato.....ed infatti i motori erano i 1600, ma oggi la musica è cambiata i potenti boxer sono ben altra cosa...altro che hOLDEN
 
Sicuramente l'articolo ha degli errori, e certamente le porsche di oggi non sono quelle di 50 anni fà, ma consentimi di dire che, per provata esperienza in questi giorni la citata 159 non è tanto anonima se la gente al ristorante si alza dal tavolo ed esce a vederla parcheggiata o passando in macchina rallenta (e sono stati molti) per guardarla meglio. Sicuramente non puoi paragonarla/e alla gt o alla 147, ma si rivolgono a un'altro target. Scendendo da una 166 posso dire che è sicuramente molto più sportiva come sterzo, assetto, cambio. I motori benzina non li ho provati ma il 2.4 non ti fa rimpiangere il benzina e come comportamento ricorda molto il (il colpo potrebbe essere forte) v6 turbo (montato sulla 164 super). Dopo 3000 Km in autostrada e non, penso che tutti stiano sottovautando la 159. Sinceramente non ho ancora capito cosa si aspetti la gente (presumendo che sappia cosa significhi oggi stare nel mercato).
 
Se non fosse stato postato tutto da Sakiss avrei detto di trovarmi di fronte all'ennesima "produzione" dell'inossidabile Gavi :matto)

La 159 è l'auto migliore del mondo! :lol:

Sarà... io mi tengo orgogliosamente il mio "vecchio" motore :asd)

perchè, come disse un uomo illuminato, "il Busso suona dal cofano mentre il canguro fa rumore solo dallo scarico"!
 
Felix7":2awqzc09 ha detto:
DriftSK":2awqzc09 ha detto:
"il Busso suona dal cofano mentre il canguro fa rumore solo dallo scarico"!
:?: Da incorniciare questa!

C'è anche "voi avete davanti quello che noi abbiamo dietro", che - detta ai proprietari di altre vetture del segmento C - sarebbe riferita alle sospensioni McPherson ma letta con malizia potrebbe assumere un significato davvero singolare :crepap) :crepap) :crepap)
 
147 JTA":mp8k8xaa ha detto:
Sicuramente l'articolo ha degli errori, e certamente le porsche di oggi non sono quelle di 50 anni fà, ma consentimi di dire che, per provata esperienza in questi giorni la citata 159 non è tanto anonima se la gente al ristorante si alza dal tavolo ed esce a vederla parcheggiata o passando in macchina rallenta (e sono stati molti) per guardarla meglio. Sicuramente non puoi paragonarla/e alla gt o alla 147, ma si rivolgono a un'altro target. Scendendo da una 166 posso dire che è sicuramente molto più sportiva come sterzo, assetto, cambio. I motori benzina non li ho provati ma il 2.4 non ti fa rimpiangere il benzina e come comportamento ricorda molto il (il colpo potrebbe essere forte) v6 turbo (montato sulla 164 super). Dopo 3000 Km in autostrada e non, penso che tutti stiano sottovautando la 159. Sinceramente non ho ancora capito cosa si aspetti la gente (presumendo che sappia cosa significhi oggi stare nel mercato).

se la gente ad Ariccia si alza da tavolo del ristorante è probabilmente perchè la favolosa porchetta ha qualche piccola controindicazione.... :culo) :asd)

a parte la battuta continuo a pensare che da un management Fiat di Lupi Lapi e zazzera di capi...che per loro i marchi di auto servono a fare le felpe...in effetti la 159 una "media sportiva da famiglia che vince le corse" come dovrebbe essere da tradizione Alfa Romeo, con trazione anteriore i motori del Doblò e il peso di un traghetto della Tirrenia...è fin troppo :muaha)

la gente si gira a guardare pure le racchie ...sempre meglio che guardare sempre le stesse curve della solita donna...ma ciò non significa di per se che l'osservata sia in qualche modo speciale...

contesto in modo assoluto che la 159 sia imparagonabile con la GT, che a mio modestissimo avviso è molto più bella ed esclusiva (continuo a confondere la 159 con la 156)...il motore da 150 cv rende il doppio sul Gt che pesa molto meno..

invidio il tuo ottimismo e patriottismo a tutti i costi...
ma come dicono gli alfisti con i capelli bianchi in fondo basta non sapere veramente che cosa è l'Alfa e pure una 155 può esserre una bella Alfa!
:champion)

ti chiedo se te la senti di spiegarmi cosa significa la frase di chiusura sul fatto di strare sul mercato...se sei convinto che con il marchio più prestigioso della storia dell'automobilismo in 20 anni la Fiat abbia fatto bene ti invito a leggerti i redazionali di cosa era l'Alfa Romeo negli anni 60 e cosa è diventata oggi grazie a manager incapaci e senza cuore....

e non rispondetemi vi prego che oggi il mercato chiede transatlantici con il clima bizona.....perchè proprio negli anni 60 la Porche mangiava gli avanzi del biscione e la Ferrari era un meccanico Alfa che aveva deciso di fare da se....
se oggi loro conquistano il mondo e le Alfa sono delle punto con il muso disegnato da pinin che vendono meno della bmw pure in Italia forse allora non è tanto vero che la 159 sia un gioiello...e forse non è tanto vero nemmeno che abbiano in testa davvero che cosa chieda il mercato e che cosa gli alfisti si aspettassero da una Alfa Romeo, sempre che non nasca qui l'equivoco ...pensare di essere alfisti ed invece essere fiattari! :sgrat)
 
A parte il fatto che la gente si è alzata da tavola proprio dalle tue parti Milano e Piacenza (la battuta su Ariccia non mi è piaciuta troppo anche se sono nato a Torino e i miei sono di Pavia e Reggio Emilia). Per quel che riguarda "stare sul mercato" mi riferivo al fatto che oggi non è come ieri: una volta Alfa era il massimo perchè dava quello che non davano gli altri a costi tutto sommato non esorbitanti; tenuta, frenata e motore erano cmq derivati dalle corse, gli altri non sapevano neanche da dove cominciare, tutto era più a compartimenti stagni: mercedes: lusso; porsche: sportiva; fiat: utilitarie ecc.. Oggi tutti sanno tirar fuori cv, tutti sanno frenare una macchina. L'Alfa proprio con l'Alfetta fece scalpore perchè era la prima Alfa ad avere sedili con i poggiatesta regolabili, delfettori apribili (in maniera avanzata per l'epoca) una comodità fuori dagli schemi Alfa.
Pensare di tirare fuori oggi una Giulietta 1° serie sarebbe anacronistico, è vero, ci sarebbero Alfisti pronti a comprarla ma non così tanti come si pensa. Ricorda che tra il dire e il fare ne passa parecchio; il mondo dell'auto e moto è pieno di esempi dove prototipi presentati hanno fatto furore e una volta messi in commercio hanno fatto flop. A me spiace sentire le critiche "gratuite" cioè critiche che demoliscono l'Alfa indipendentemente da ciò che viene fatto basandosi esclusivamente su ciò che fu l'Alfa (Anche durante l'impero romano l'Italia ha rotto il cxxo a tutto il mondo allora conosciuto non per questo abbiamo ancora i centurioni). L'Alfa era fallita anche per l'impossibilità/incapacità di evolversi: la legge di mercato dice che l'offerta si deve adeguare alla domanda altrimenti chiude e a meno che non tiri fuori solo 5000 pezzi l'anno ti devi adeguare alle sinergie.
Non sono fiattista ma una persona che da quando è nata (1974) ha sempre viaggiato Alfa Romeo e stranamente mio padre che di capelli bianchi ormai ne ha ben più di uno si è sempre rifiutato di cambiare marchio anche quando l'Alfetta aveva una carrozzeria che si arruginiva a vederla, si staccavano i collettori dalla giulietta, quando si è passati alla trazione anteriore, quando c'erano problemi infiniti con le centraline di 164 t.s e soprattutto quando la 164 v6TB NON FRENAVA a rischio di sfracellarsi. Ti faccio poi notare una coincidenza :) : hai nominato una macchina (155) che in Polizia viene ancora ricordata per le sue qualità e affidabilità (spesso giravano h24 perchè erano poche, quindi scendeva chi era smontante e senza spegnerla saliva il nuovo equipaggio). Sicuramente la 159 pesa troppo e il motore purtoroppo è fiat, forse preferivate un motore ford (visto che fanno esattamente lo stesso con Jaguar, Aston Martin ecc.) ma credo che oltre che criticare bisorebbe essere in grado di dare alternative vere e fattibili.
P.S. col motore doblò sulla 147 faccio piangere audi, bmw, renault e faccio incxxxre slk sul tratto barberino-bologna.
 
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